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Kwe, bonjour and hello.

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I'm Gilbert Le Gras,
Special Advisor

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to the Chief of Professional
Conduct and Culture.

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I would like to acknowledge

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that we are recording
this conversation

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on the unceded territory of the
Algonquin Anishinaabe People.

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The Chief of Professional
Conduct and Culture consulted

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more than fifteen thousand
Defence Team members

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and heard
a lot of questions about

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how to have difficult
conversations with subordinates.

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So, we turn to the experts
for some ideas

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on how to navigate this space.

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Melanie Michaud is
the associate Ombuds

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and director of the Informal
Conflict Management System

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of the Department of Justice.

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She was elected champion

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of the Federal Informal
Conflict Management System

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in December 2020.

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Melanie has extensive experience

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in the conflict
management field,

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particularly
with coaching individuals

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and working with teams
on group dynamics.

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Geneviève Lord is
the Director General

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of Conflict Solutions
and Services

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in the Chief of Professional
Conduct and Culture team.

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Programs under
her leadership include

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the delivery of conflict
solution services

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through Conflict and Complaint
Management Service Centres

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located across Canada.

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Programs under
Geneviève's leadership

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at the CPCC's Conflict Solutions
and Services Director General

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include the delivery
of conflict solutions

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and services across Canada

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through the Conflict

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and Complaint Management
Services Centres,

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Canadian Forces
Grievance Authority,

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harassment prevention
and resolution programs,

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CAF human rights complaints,

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and several leadership
support programs,

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such as the Defence Team
Coaching Program,

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restorative services,
and the leadership support team.

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I once read that a problem
avoided is a crisis invited,

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which brings me to the heart
of our discussion today.

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How do you have
a difficult conversation

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in today's increasingly
diverse workplace?

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Nearly one in four Canadians
was born outside Canada.

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That's 23% of people in Canada
who were born outside of Canada.

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The federal government,

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which tries to set the example

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as the country's
biggest employer,

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has apologized
for past harms to,

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and is trying to make itself
a more welcoming place

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for members of the 2SLGTBQIA+
communities

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and for employees
who are Black, Indigenous,

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and people of colour.

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That's a lot of diversity

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and having hired
and supervised employees,

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I can understand
that sometimes it's not easy

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to handle with certain subjects
and deal with all that.

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Geneviève and Melanie
have offered to talk to us

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about the stages
of difficult conversations.

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First, how to disarm resistance

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by creating
a safe space to talk.

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Then, how to allow for emotions

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without necessarily condoning
the attitudes or behaviours

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that are at issue.

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Also, how to be
appropriately assertive.

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And finally, how to best
conclude the conversation.

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I suppose avoidance must be

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one of the most common
forms of resistance.

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Melanie, tell us about your
experiences and advice here.

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I would agree with you, Gilbert.

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Avoidance is definitely
a very common form

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that we see,
a very tempting form as well

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in how to deal
with difficult situations

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or difficult conversations.

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However, by avoiding
important issues

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or avoiding important
conversations,

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we often, actually,
worsen the situation

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and help the conflict
or the situation in escalating.

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So, I think when thinking about

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how to create a safe space,

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how do we set up a potential
difficult conversation,

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what can help is seeing
resistance as a natural part

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of the process,

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that it's common,
it's to be expected.

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Avoidance is not
the only form of resistance.

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Resistance can show up
as silence,

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as over flooding with facts,

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as maybe wanting to go
to resolution right away,

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as well, or proposing
many different ways

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of resolving right away.

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So, all these are forms
of resistance.

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So, being conscious
of that resistance can come

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in different forms.

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Resistance is rarely meant
as personal, to attack you.

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So, by seeing it as part
of the process,

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you help creating
that safe space.

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Don't see it as a threat,

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because that often
just reinforces

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that it might become
more difficult to manage.

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So, by initiating
the conversation,

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trying to separate the person
from what is really going on,

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trying to see resistance
as a natural part of it,

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will definitely help setting
it up for success.

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What are you thinking?

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Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's the basis

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of having those conversations
and ensuring the space

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and the time to have
the conversations,

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making sure
that it's the right time,

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that the person is ready
to hear the message

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that you're also trying
to convey,

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I think, is critical

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in setting those conversations
up for success.

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I would also offer, I think

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that the relationship building
is super important.

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Having difficult conversations
will be a lot easier,

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from my experience,
if you've taken the time

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to build those relationships
with your employees,

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with the people
that you work with.

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Asking things like,
on a personal level,

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what do they like to do,
do they have kids,

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those types of things that are
really relationship building

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and show interest
in the employee as a person.

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Also, makes
those difficult conversations

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a little bit easier
when tensions are running high

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and there's a lot
of things going on,

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emotions are running high,

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If you've taken time
to build that relationship,

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I find that those really,
those discussions are

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a little bit easier to have

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once you've taken
the time to do that.

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What you've shared is
very interesting.

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People don't always feel
properly equipped

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to resolve conflicts.

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Geneviève, how can your team
equip the members

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of the Defence Team?

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Definitely, Gilbert,
it's a very complicated space.

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People are often afraid
to have those conversations;

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they don't really know
how to go about it.

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They're afraid of the reaction
and they're afraid of emotions.

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So how can we really see
what's available?

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My team takes care
of service delivery

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in 16 service centres
across Canada.

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So, it's the service centres

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that handle complaints
and disputes.

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You can go to one of the centres
and you'll be greeted

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by an agent who will take
a look at the problem

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and suggest solutions,

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such as coaching
for difficult conversations,

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for either managers
and employees.

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How do we talk to our supervisor
about difficult situations?

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We also have conflict
management practitioners

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who will really be able
to guide you

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and maybe act as mediators
in a difficult conversation.

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And then, sometimes
it's just having someone

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to talk to, to help sort out
how we feel

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and to see figure out
what our approach will be.

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So, the service centres
are really there to help

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the members of the Defence Team,

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military and civilian members,

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really navigate
these complex issues.

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Interesting.

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How do you respond respectfully

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to emotions without giving

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inappropriate behaviours
and attitudes, tacit approval?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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I think the key to that is to
address inappropriate behaviours

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when they happen
and not let them fester.

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I think that in not addressing
things you give key messages

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that it's okay to act that

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and that you're accepting
the behaviours that are present.

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So, addressing them
early is really key for me,

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but also knowing
that you can have

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any discussion with respect

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and in creating that
psychologically safe space

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to provide that feedback,
to have those discussions.

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And fully understand,

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a lot of times people are
acting out in a certain way

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and it might have nothing
to do with the workplace.

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It might have to do
with their personal life,

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it might have to do with
the fact that they had a fight

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with their partner.

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There's a lot of different
things that can affect that,

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so trying to get
to the crux of the issue

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as quickly as possible
but not letting

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those inappropriate
behaviours continue is key,

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really, to maintaining
that healthy workplace.

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Melanie, how do you gauge

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how to best calibrate

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respectful assertiveness

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in response
to the inappropriate behaviour?

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Yes, so, I'd like to talk here

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a little bit about that,
often we mistake

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assertiveness as a scary thing.

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We sometimes shy away
from saying no to somebody

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or saying that something
is wrong because we feel

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that we might offend.

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But it's really crucial,

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especially when we think
about safe,

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psychological safe workplaces,

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that we are able to have those
conversations where we can say,

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what we agreed on,

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where we can have
conversations around

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what respect means to us,

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because being emotional is okay

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but not all behaviours attached
to our emotions are okay

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in the workplace.

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So, it's important to be able
to have those conversations,

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that's where assertiveness comes
in, certainly, as a tool.

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Assertiveness does not have
to be strict,

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does not have to be strong.

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Assertiveness can be
very respectful

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and by being able
to be respectfully assertive,

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we actually create
stronger relationship,

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respectful relationship
in the workplace.

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It's definitely part of it.

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Because, by always just
accommodating,

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we are not creating a strong,

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professional working
relationship.

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We have to be able to accept
each other's differences,

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emotions,

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how we work through issues,

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and the only way to do
that respectfully is

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when we are able to talk
about boundaries

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with each other as well.

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Yeah, no, I was just
going to add,

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I think Melanie makes
a really great point.

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And I think that
an understanding,

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a lot of conflicts are based
in perception.

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Anyways, that's my experience.

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So, understanding the other
person's perception,

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understanding
where they're coming from

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and how they viewed a certain
circumstance or situation,

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that may have no relevance
to the way

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that you experienced it
or viewed it

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and that's based
on many different things.

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Your lived experience,
your personal history,

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how you were raised,
all those kinds of things

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factor into the workplace.

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So, I think
it's really important

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that we look at perception
and we understand perception,

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and sometimes just taking
the time to understand

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the other person's point
of view and how they've lived

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a certain circumstance
or situation

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will help us gain
a better understanding,

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but also eliminate issues
that may be present

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or let them grow into something
that it didn't need to be.

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How would you recommend

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that people end this type
of conversation?

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Because it can be a bit awkward,
inconvenient,

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but I imagine that in the end

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we're all relieved and just want
to leave and get back to work.

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But are there proper
procedures to follow?

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Yes, absolutely.

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I find that the key is really
to ensure understanding.

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An understanding of what has
been discussed, on both sides.

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So, paraphrase and say:
"This is how..." You know...

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"This is what I understood
from our meeting today.

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Did I understand
how you saw that correctly?"

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People want to be understood.
They want to be seen and heard.

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So, I think that
it's really important

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to summarize the conversation,

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not just close the door and run.

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So, to recap,
have the conversation and say:

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"This is what I heard today.

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"Does that reflect
how you're feeling?

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Does this reflect
your perception of things?"

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Actually ending the conversation
like that will ensure

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that people feel...

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will increase the chances that
people feel seen and heard.

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And I think that yes,
it's still a good practice.

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And maybe even if you
don't feel comfortable

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at that time
because your emotions may be

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running a bit high

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or you know that people
are uncomfortable,

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it's okay to do
a little summary by email.

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Say, you know: "Thank you.
We spoke to each other today.

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"This is what I understood
from our conversation.

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Is that how you saw it?"

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Either way,
I think it's appropriate.

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Melanie, I don't know if you had
some thing else to add?

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Yes, absolutely.
I couldn't agree more.

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And it's also okay,

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if for whatever reason a
conversation is not going well,

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if emotions are high,
because you know,

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there can be
very difficult issues.

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You don't need to force
the conversation either.

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Maybe it's not the right moment,

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maybe the person is having
a really bad day,

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maybe you were having
a really bad day, right?

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So, try to end it
then on a positive note,

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just acknowledge
the emotions in room.

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Just say, this is not really
going well for both of us,

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maybe we convene another day.

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You know and leave it at that.

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It doesn't need to be resolved
all at once,

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and then you can schedule
a follow-up as well.

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But I think
that's really important,

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not trying to force it.

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And every conversation is
so different

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and situational, right?

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So, there is never
a one fix all.

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So, stay adaptable,
stay flexible,

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and I think what's key

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to a difficult conversation
is always like, prepare.

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Know yourself,
know your triggers,

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think about it beforehand.

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00:14:43,509 --> 00:14:48,013
Well, thank you,
Melanie and Geneviève.

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I feel that we've touched
a lot of wave tops

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on what's a very deep subject

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00:14:54,102 --> 00:14:57,648
and your insights as subject
matter experts are

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00:14:57,648 --> 00:15:01,485
really valuable for the Defence
Team and really, frankly,

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00:15:01,485 --> 00:15:04,613
anyone who wants to improve
their relationships

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00:15:04,613 --> 00:15:06,990
with other people
that they interact with

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00:15:06,990 --> 00:15:09,993
in the workplace
or at home or anywhere.

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I was just wondering

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if there are any materials that
you might recommend to anyone

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00:15:16,416 --> 00:15:19,878
who's interested in developing
their skills further

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00:15:19,878 --> 00:15:23,882
beyond what they've learned
listening to you at this time?

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00:15:23,882 --> 00:15:27,010
There is a great website
that I would recommend.

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So, if you google
"Crucial Skills",

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00:15:29,930 --> 00:15:32,474
you can subscribe
to the newsletter.

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00:15:32,474 --> 00:15:35,352
It's the same people who wrote
"Difficult Conversations".

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00:15:35,352 --> 00:15:40,315
They give really good tips
and tricks and skills

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00:15:40,315 --> 00:15:41,900
in how to handle

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00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:44,111
all kind of potentially
difficult conversations.

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00:15:44,111 --> 00:15:46,029
Great, Thank you. Geneviève.

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00:15:46,029 --> 00:15:49,700
Again, I would refer people
for one-on-one help

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00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:52,119
to the Complaints and Conflict
Management Services Centres

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00:15:52,119 --> 00:15:54,580
across Canada.
What I would recommend

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00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:56,498
from reading material would be,

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00:15:56,498 --> 00:15:59,209
"Difficult Conversations: How
to Discuss What Matters Most",

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00:15:59,209 --> 00:16:03,172
and the authors for that book
are Stone, Patton, and Heen.

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00:16:03,172 --> 00:16:07,509
And then there's also two,
kind of "incontournables"

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00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:09,636
if we want to call them, books.

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00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:12,931
"Getting Past No"
and "Getting to Yes",

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00:16:12,931 --> 00:16:15,976
by Fisher and Ury,
that I would really recommend

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00:16:15,976 --> 00:16:18,145
to really create some
of that baseline knowledge

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00:16:18,145 --> 00:16:19,938
around how to have

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00:16:19,938 --> 00:16:22,524
very difficult conversations
for sure.

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00:16:22,524 --> 00:16:25,736
We hope that this discussion
has given you

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00:16:25,736 --> 00:16:29,072
a few practical ideas
that you can use at work

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00:16:29,072 --> 00:16:31,283
to make it a healthier place.

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00:16:31,283 --> 00:16:33,327
For members
of the Defence Team,

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00:16:33,327 --> 00:16:36,538
remember that Conflict Solutions
and Services has

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00:16:36,538 --> 00:16:39,291
16 Conflict and Complaints
Management Services Centres

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00:16:39,291 --> 00:16:41,376
across Canada.

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Thank you, merci, miigwech.