Kwe, bonjour and hello.
I'm Gilbert Le Gras,
Special Advisor
to the Chief of Professional
Conduct and Culture.
I would like to acknowledge
that we are recording
this conversation
on the unceded territory of the
Algonquin Anishinaabe People.
The Chief of Professional
Conduct and Culture consulted
more than fifteen thousand
Defence Team members
and heard
a lot of questions about
how to have difficult
conversations with subordinates.
So, we turn to the experts
for some ideas
on how to navigate this space.
Melanie Michaud is
the associate Ombuds
and director of the Informal
Conflict Management System
of the Department of Justice.
She was elected champion
of the Federal Informal
Conflict Management System
in December 2020.
Melanie has extensive experience
in the conflict
management field,
particularly
with coaching individuals
and working with teams
on group dynamics.
Geneviève Lord is
the Director General
of Conflict Solutions
and Services
in the Chief of Professional
Conduct and Culture team.
Programs under
her leadership include
the delivery of conflict
solution services
through Conflict and Complaint
Management Service Centres
located across Canada.
Programs under
Geneviève's leadership
at the CPCC's Conflict Solutions
and Services Director General
include the delivery
of conflict solutions
and services across Canada
through the Conflict
and Complaint Management
Services Centres,
Canadian Forces
Grievance Authority,
harassment prevention
and resolution programs,
CAF human rights complaints,
and several leadership
support programs,
such as the Defence Team
Coaching Program,
restorative services,
and the leadership support team.
I once read that a problem
avoided is a crisis invited,
which brings me to the heart
of our discussion today.
How do you have
a difficult conversation
in today's increasingly
diverse workplace?
Nearly one in four Canadians
was born outside Canada.
That's 23% of people in Canada
who were born outside of Canada.
The federal government,
which tries to set the example
as the country's
biggest employer,
has apologized
for past harms to,
and is trying to make itself
a more welcoming place
for members of the 2SLGTBQIA+
communities
and for employees
who are Black, Indigenous,
and people of colour.
That's a lot of diversity
and having hired
and supervised employees,
I can understand
that sometimes it's not easy
to handle with certain subjects
and deal with all that.
Geneviève and Melanie
have offered to talk to us
about the stages
of difficult conversations.
First, how to disarm resistance
by creating
a safe space to talk.
Then, how to allow for emotions
without necessarily condoning
the attitudes or behaviours
that are at issue.
Also, how to be
appropriately assertive.
And finally, how to best
conclude the conversation.
I suppose avoidance must be
one of the most common
forms of resistance.
Melanie, tell us about your
experiences and advice here.
I would agree with you, Gilbert.
Avoidance is definitely
a very common form
that we see,
a very tempting form as well
in how to deal
with difficult situations
or difficult conversations.
However, by avoiding
important issues
or avoiding important
conversations,
we often, actually,
worsen the situation
and help the conflict
or the situation in escalating.
So, I think when thinking about
how to create a safe space,
how do we set up a potential
difficult conversation,
what can help is seeing
resistance as a natural part
of the process,
that it's common,
it's to be expected.
Avoidance is not
the only form of resistance.
Resistance can show up
as silence,
as over flooding with facts,
as maybe wanting to go
to resolution right away,
as well, or proposing
many different ways
of resolving right away.
So, all these are forms
of resistance.
So, being conscious
of that resistance can come
in different forms.
Resistance is rarely meant
as personal, to attack you.
So, by seeing it as part
of the process,
you help creating
that safe space.
Don't see it as a threat,
because that often
just reinforces
that it might become
more difficult to manage.
So, by initiating
the conversation,
trying to separate the person
from what is really going on,
trying to see resistance
as a natural part of it,
will definitely help setting
it up for success.
What are you thinking?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's the basis
of having those conversations
and ensuring the space
and the time to have
the conversations,
making sure
that it's the right time,
that the person is ready
to hear the message
that you're also trying
to convey,
I think, is critical
in setting those conversations
up for success.
I would also offer, I think
that the relationship building
is super important.
Having difficult conversations
will be a lot easier,
from my experience,
if you've taken the time
to build those relationships
with your employees,
with the people
that you work with.
Asking things like,
on a personal level,
what do they like to do,
do they have kids,
those types of things that are
really relationship building
and show interest
in the employee as a person.
Also, makes
those difficult conversations
a little bit easier
when tensions are running high
and there's a lot
of things going on,
emotions are running high,
If you've taken time
to build that relationship,
I find that those really,
those discussions are
a little bit easier to have
once you've taken
the time to do that.
What you've shared is
very interesting.
People don't always feel
properly equipped
to resolve conflicts.
Geneviève, how can your team
equip the members
of the Defence Team?
Definitely, Gilbert,
it's a very complicated space.
People are often afraid
to have those conversations;
they don't really know
how to go about it.
They're afraid of the reaction
and they're afraid of emotions.
So how can we really see
what's available?
My team takes care
of service delivery
in 16 service centres
across Canada.
So, it's the service centres
that handle complaints
and disputes.
You can go to one of the centres
and you'll be greeted
by an agent who will take
a look at the problem
and suggest solutions,
such as coaching
for difficult conversations,
for either managers
and employees.
How do we talk to our supervisor
about difficult situations?
We also have conflict
management practitioners
who will really be able
to guide you
and maybe act as mediators
in a difficult conversation.
And then, sometimes
it's just having someone
to talk to, to help sort out
how we feel
and to see figure out
what our approach will be.
So, the service centres
are really there to help
the members of the Defence Team,
military and civilian members,
really navigate
these complex issues.
Interesting.
How do you respond respectfully
to emotions without giving
inappropriate behaviours
and attitudes, tacit approval?
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think the key to that is to
address inappropriate behaviours
when they happen
and not let them fester.
I think that in not addressing
things you give key messages
that it's okay to act that
and that you're accepting
the behaviours that are present.
So, addressing them
early is really key for me,
but also knowing
that you can have
any discussion with respect
and in creating that
psychologically safe space
to provide that feedback,
to have those discussions.
And fully understand,
a lot of times people are
acting out in a certain way
and it might have nothing
to do with the workplace.
It might have to do
with their personal life,
it might have to do with
the fact that they had a fight
with their partner.
There's a lot of different
things that can affect that,
so trying to get
to the crux of the issue
as quickly as possible
but not letting
those inappropriate
behaviours continue is key,
really, to maintaining
that healthy workplace.
Melanie, how do you gauge
how to best calibrate
respectful assertiveness
in response
to the inappropriate behaviour?
Yes, so, I'd like to talk here
a little bit about that,
often we mistake
assertiveness as a scary thing.
We sometimes shy away
from saying no to somebody
or saying that something
is wrong because we feel
that we might offend.
But it's really crucial,
especially when we think
about safe,
psychological safe workplaces,
that we are able to have those
conversations where we can say,
what we agreed on,
where we can have
conversations around
what respect means to us,
because being emotional is okay
but not all behaviours attached
to our emotions are okay
in the workplace.
So, it's important to be able
to have those conversations,
that's where assertiveness comes
in, certainly, as a tool.
Assertiveness does not have
to be strict,
does not have to be strong.
Assertiveness can be
very respectful
and by being able
to be respectfully assertive,
we actually create
stronger relationship,
respectful relationship
in the workplace.
It's definitely part of it.
Because, by always just
accommodating,
we are not creating a strong,
professional working
relationship.
We have to be able to accept
each other's differences,
emotions,
how we work through issues,
and the only way to do
that respectfully is
when we are able to talk
about boundaries
with each other as well.
Yeah, no, I was just
going to add,
I think Melanie makes
a really great point.
And I think that
an understanding,
a lot of conflicts are based
in perception.
Anyways, that's my experience.
So, understanding the other
person's perception,
understanding
where they're coming from
and how they viewed a certain
circumstance or situation,
that may have no relevance
to the way
that you experienced it
or viewed it
and that's based
on many different things.
Your lived experience,
your personal history,
how you were raised,
all those kinds of things
factor into the workplace.
So, I think
it's really important
that we look at perception
and we understand perception,
and sometimes just taking
the time to understand
the other person's point
of view and how they've lived
a certain circumstance
or situation
will help us gain
a better understanding,
but also eliminate issues
that may be present
or let them grow into something
that it didn't need to be.
How would you recommend
that people end this type
of conversation?
Because it can be a bit awkward,
inconvenient,
but I imagine that in the end
we're all relieved and just want
to leave and get back to work.
But are there proper
procedures to follow?
Yes, absolutely.
I find that the key is really
to ensure understanding.
An understanding of what has
been discussed, on both sides.
So, paraphrase and say:
"This is how..." You know...
"This is what I understood
from our meeting today.
Did I understand
how you saw that correctly?"
People want to be understood.
They want to be seen and heard.
So, I think that
it's really important
to summarize the conversation,
not just close the door and run.
So, to recap,
have the conversation and say:
"This is what I heard today.
"Does that reflect
how you're feeling?
Does this reflect
your perception of things?"
Actually ending the conversation
like that will ensure
that people feel...
will increase the chances that
people feel seen and heard.
And I think that yes,
it's still a good practice.
And maybe even if you
don't feel comfortable
at that time
because your emotions may be
running a bit high
or you know that people
are uncomfortable,
it's okay to do
a little summary by email.
Say, you know: "Thank you.
We spoke to each other today.
"This is what I understood
from our conversation.
Is that how you saw it?"
Either way,
I think it's appropriate.
Melanie, I don't know if you had
some thing else to add?
Yes, absolutely.
I couldn't agree more.
And it's also okay,
if for whatever reason a
conversation is not going well,
if emotions are high,
because you know,
there can be
very difficult issues.
You don't need to force
the conversation either.
Maybe it's not the right moment,
maybe the person is having
a really bad day,
maybe you were having
a really bad day, right?
So, try to end it
then on a positive note,
just acknowledge
the emotions in room.
Just say, this is not really
going well for both of us,
maybe we convene another day.
You know and leave it at that.
It doesn't need to be resolved
all at once,
and then you can schedule
a follow-up as well.
But I think
that's really important,
not trying to force it.
And every conversation is
so different
and situational, right?
So, there is never
a one fix all.
So, stay adaptable,
stay flexible,
and I think what's key
to a difficult conversation
is always like, prepare.
Know yourself,
know your triggers,
think about it beforehand.
Well, thank you,
Melanie and Geneviève.
I feel that we've touched
a lot of wave tops
on what's a very deep subject
and your insights as subject
matter experts are
really valuable for the Defence
Team and really, frankly,
anyone who wants to improve
their relationships
with other people
that they interact with
in the workplace
or at home or anywhere.
I was just wondering
if there are any materials that
you might recommend to anyone
who's interested in developing
their skills further
beyond what they've learned
listening to you at this time?
There is a great website
that I would recommend.
So, if you google
"Crucial Skills",
you can subscribe
to the newsletter.
It's the same people who wrote
"Difficult Conversations".
They give really good tips
and tricks and skills
in how to handle
all kind of potentially
difficult conversations.
Great, Thank you. Geneviève.
Again, I would refer people
for one-on-one help
to the Complaints and Conflict
Management Services Centres
across Canada.
What I would recommend
from reading material would be,
"Difficult Conversations: How
to Discuss What Matters Most",
and the authors for that book
are Stone, Patton, and Heen.
And then there's also two,
kind of "incontournables"
if we want to call them, books.
"Getting Past No"
and "Getting to Yes",
by Fisher and Ury,
that I would really recommend
to really create some
of that baseline knowledge
around how to have
very difficult conversations
for sure.
We hope that this discussion
has given you
a few practical ideas
that you can use at work
to make it a healthier place.
For members
of the Defence Team,
remember that Conflict Solutions
and Services has
16 Conflict and Complaints
Management Services Centres
across Canada.
Thank you, merci, miigwech.