Anna-Maria – William Elliott became the first civilian appointed to lead the Force in July of 2007 taking over in the wake of the resignation of Guillano Zacardelli. This morning RCMP Commissioner William Elliott joins me from Ottawa. Good Morning.
Elliott – Good Morning Anna-Maria.
Anna-Maria – We have a lot to talk about but to start you lost two Officers in Haiti, Supt. Doug Coates, Sgt. Marc Gallagher. Can you tell us about them?
Elliott – Well Marc Gallagher was serving in Haiti. He was involved in our on-going efforts there. We have had, for a number of years, about 100 Canadian civilian police officers in Haiti. Marc had been there for a few months. He had just returned back to Haiti just hours before the earthquake having spent Christmas with his family in New Brunswick. I didn’t know Marc personally but by all accounts he was a warm outgoing and very generous man and I’m sure this is a terrible blow for everyone that knew him, and for the Force. Doug Coates, I actually knew him quite well. I had travelled to Haiti twice with Doug when he was running our International Operations out of our Headquarters in Ottawa and a few months ago he took on his fourth assignment in Haiti. He was a very strong believer in Peacekeeping and the United Nations and in the Mounties and Canada’s role in that.
Anna-Maria – He was actually one of the top people for UN, right? Kinda seconded, working for both the RCMP and the UN in that position.
Elliott – Yes, he was…
Anna-Maria – Number three I think.
Elliott – Yes, he was in fact the acting Commissioner of Police for the UN mission.
Anna-Maria – So it must be a difficult time for your Force with these two.
Elliott – It certainly is, and I feel very badly for the families and everyone else. It’s been a very long time since the earthquake. I am glad that finally tomorrow we will be able to bring our colleagues home and then appropriately celebrate their lives and their sacrifices.
Anna-Maria – In the midst of that crisis you have many challenges in leading the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. You have seen the film “Mounties Under Fire”, you have been listening to Helen Slinger. How would you characterize the change that needs to happen?
Elliott – Well, I agree with Helen, and certainly she heard this throughout the time she was making the film, which was the last two years. We need to bring about very fundamental changes to the RCMP. That was certainly pointed out at the time I was appointed Commissioner and the Task Force on Governance and Cultural Change was appointed. I would say that we have made a huge number of changes in the last two years. I don’t suggest that we don’t have far more to do then we have already done. But I think that there are a number of areas where the situation is vastly improved today then it was two years ago.
Anna-Maria – We know that lack of diversity remains a problem in the Force. We heard a few minutes ago, you lose someone like Alex Rouhani, he speaks four languages. The film says he’s a business administration graduate. He’s disenchanted with the nature in which members, or recruits are treated. How do you reconcile that?
Elliott – Well, first of all, I would certainly agree that we need more diversity in the Force and the Force needs to better reflect the face of Canada and the communities we serve. But in fact, we do recruit and promote Canadians from various backgrounds. And you know it’s unfortunate that this individual didn’t complete his training and join our ranks but I think we have to remember that there are hundreds and hundreds of recruits that are successful each year. We sent record numbers of recruits last year about 1800 which is about 10 % of the number of police officers in the Force. So there’s very…. Helen talked about the need for change at the top and at the bottom. I’d say we need it at the top, at the bottom and throughout the Force. But in the lower ranks the Force is changing very rapidly. We have a very large percentage of police officers, for example, with fewer than 5 years service. And they bring new skill sets and new attitudes and certainly what they think is the way to conduct themselves, and the Force to conduct themselves, is vastly different than in the past.
Anna-Maria – I want to talk to you about public trust. On the one hand we have seen a successful investigation that has lead to convictions for some charged in the terrorist trials in the so-called Toronto 18 case. On the other hand, the death of Robert Dziekanski. What do you expect the public to take away from those two very different cases?
Elliott – Well, they are very different cases and I guess overall what I would hope that the public would understand is that we are a very good police force, I think that is well recognized not only here in Canada but internationally. And certainly a lot of our work with respect anti-terrorism very much involves our work with our international partners. We are also an organization of about 30 000 people. We are people. We make mistakes. I think the important thing is for us to work to avoid mistakes and to react quickly when mistakes are made. And with respect to the tragic death of Mr. Dziekanski, we have made very significant changes to our policies, training practices and accountability regime with respect to the use of tasers.
Anna-Marie – In your view who was responsible for the mistakes that lead to Mr. Dziekanski’s death?
Elliott – Well I’m not going to speak about the specifics of that. We are awaiting the report of the public inquiry that Mr. Justice Braidwood is conducting. But having said that, I think it is very clear, it was certainly clear to us, that we needed to make changes with respect to our policies and training. And therefore I think you have to look significantly to policies and training when judgments are made with respect to individuals and individual incidents.
Anna-Maria – Well I want to talk to you more about the things you can talk about. Commissioner Elliott if you will stay with us we will take a 90 second break. We have much more to discuss. I am speaking to Commissioner Elliott you are listening to the Current on CBC Radio One. […]
Anna-Maria – Hello, I am Anna-Maria Tremonti and this is the Current I am speaking with RCMP Commissioner William Elliott about the challenges facing the RCMP. And Commissioner Elliott is with us from Ottawa. Hello again…
Elliott – Good morning.
Anna-Maria – We are talking about the issue of change and also public trust. We have heard from the officers involved in the incident with Robert Dziekanski. They gave their versions of what happened at the Braidwood inquiry. Strikingly, a 2009 Canadian Press Harris Decima poll found 60 % Canadians do not believe the RCMP version of events. In British Columbia, where it happened the number is 71%. How do you respond to those poll numbers?
Elliott – Well I guess, I would say that one of the fundamental things at play here is transparency and accountability. And we are very strongly in favour of measures being taken to enhance the independent oversight and review of the RCMP. We have been working with the government with respect to initiatives to do that. We are also taking steps on our own to provide for independent investigations of members the RCMP. As I have often said, if it were up to me, I would never have the RCMP investigate a member or employee of the RCMP. We are working to move towards that, because I think the public needs to be assured that when serious incidents occur, when potential missteps or real missteps and mistakes are made that those are thoroughly examined and that whatever adjustments need to be made as a result are in fact taken.
Anna-Maria – You say if it were up to you, is it not up to you?
Elliott – Well no it isn’t up to me. I am glad you asked that question. When an incident occurs that needs to be investigated, someone has to do the investigation and in some provinces, for example, independent agencies have been set up to carry out those investigations. But in many parts of the country there are no independent agencies, so what we do, on an ad hoc basis really, in those instances, is we go to other police forces and we ask them in essence to do us a favour and conduct an investigation and often they do that but sometimes they are just not in a position to do that. They are not mandated to do that. They are not resourced to that. And in some areas of the country, in the far north for example, there often is not another police officer, other than a member of the RCMP, within thousands of kilometers. So, at least initially, witnesses need to interviewed, evidence has to be gathered. And if no one else is there to do it, then the RCMP has an obligation to act.
Anna-Maria – So you are saying that you recognize that by the RCMP investigating itself that raises questions of trust, that if you want the trust you have to have that step back.
Elliott – Absolutely. I think that whenever we conduct an investigation into a member of the RCMP, and I think I’d go broader than that. Whenever any police force conducts an investigation into a member of another police force, some people will ask about how well that investigation is done, how impartially that investigation is carried out. So I think where possible, we should have complete independence with respect to those investigations. And where that isn’t possible, we should have other means to ensure that that investigation is thoroughly done and impartially done, for example by appointing somebody independent to act as an observer to report on the impartiality of the investigation. And we do that in a number of places across the country and we have also been doing that with the Commission of Public Complaints against the RCMP on a pilot basis but that needs to be put on a firm footing. And frankly, there are some financial implications, as well, that are far beyond the ability of the RCMP. Both with respect to authority and jurisdiction and with respect to money.
Anna-Maria – You know you talk about this issue, there is the case of Ian Bush who was shot and killed by a RCMP officer while in police custody at Houston, BC’s detachment in 2005. His family has said it had no confidence in the process that followed because the case was investigated by the police. Is.. this is what you are talking about?
Elliott – Well, I’m not talking about that specific case. I would point out in that specific case that there was not just an investigation by the RCMP, there were several independent processes. But generally speaking, as I said, I think we need to respond to the legitimate concerns that the public has about the police investigating police. We are doing all that we can internally in the RCMP and working with others, basically the Federal, Provincial and Territorial Governments, to provide for more mechanisms to provide that assurance to the public.
Anna-Maria – Now you mention the RCMP Public Complaints Commission, as well it has a new acting chair, Ian MacPhail, as of this week. How important is independent public oversight?
Elliott – I think that it is critically important. The more credible the independent oversight review of the RCMP is, the more credible the Force would be, or will be. And, we cannot provide the essential services on which Canadians rely if they don’t trust us. And they won’t trust us if there are not mechanisms in place to make sure that if and when we do things we shouldn’t do, or don’t do things as well as we should do them, that we’ll be held accountable.
Anna-Maria – And yet the Public Complaints Commissioners of the past have complained they have been ham strung by the process. That they cannot get as far as they want to get in their job of oversight.
Elliott – Well I don’t think there is any doubt that the current legislative regime that set up the Commission of Public Complaints against the RCMP 20 some years ago needs to be updated. And I am strongly supportive of steps being taken, by the government, by way of introducing legislation and Parliament adopting that legislation to strengthen the mandate and authorities of the body that Parliament has appointed to handle complaints against the RCMP and to carry out examinations of our actions.
Anna-Maria – So whose holding up the transparency then?
Elliott – Well I’m not sure that I would put it that way. The federal government has been working with provinces and territories. The former Minister of Public Safety indicated that the government is committed to bringing forth legislation. I am sure this will be high on the agenda of Mr. Toews.
Anna-Maria – And what should the legislation say?
Elliott – Well…
Anna-Maria – Now’s your chance.
Elliott – Well, with respect. I have other opportunities to make known our views.
Anna-Maria – Fair enough, but you can let the public know too.
Elliott - I think fundamentally you have to realize that we are talking about an independent body, so decisions on the specifics on that independent body and the authorities that it should have should not be up to the RCMP. It will be up to the government and Parliament to decide that but broadly speaking, I am in favour of more authorities for an independent commission and a stronger mandate. I think that it is in the best interest of the public and it’s in the best interest of the RCMP.
Anna-Maria – Let’s talk about some of the issues that are under your control. You did change the use of force policy a year ago in relation to the death of Mr. Dziekanski. What do you believe were the most significant changes?
Elliott – I think the most significant changes, significantly with respect to the use of tasers, and of course use of force is far broader than the use of tasers. But specifically on tasers, we have restricted the use of the weapon, and we call it a weapon, to situations where the safety of the public, or the safety of our officers is at stake. We have taken significant steps to make our officers more aware of the risks associated with the risk of the taser, including the risk of death. It’s a very significant use of force and with any use of force, there are risks. We have changed our training in support of the changes in policy and we have also strengthened our reporting requirements. So there is, whenever a taser is used, and we use a very broad definition of used, that means even when it’s drawn or threatened to be used, not only when it’s actual deployed. There is a mandatory reporting requirement and those reports are shared in real time with the Commission for Complaints against the RCMP.
Anna-Maria – And so, do you have the data that tells you if your changes are working?
Elliott – We certainly have much better data than we had and one of the significant things that has happened is that our officers are using the tasers far less frequently than in the past.
Anna-Maria – And that’s specifically because of your change in policy?
Elliott – Well it’s hard to make that connection, but certainly we have made those changes in policy. I think that a lot of attention has been drawn by the tragic death of Mr. Dziekanski and the on going public inquiry. There has been a lot of attention to the risks associated with the device. We are also putting a lot of renewed emphasis on the importance of what we call de-escalation. And that is that you don’t resort to force at all unless it’s required. And where you do need, where an officer does need to resort to force, that appropriate choices are made with respect to what to do and how to do it.
Anna-Maria – You talk about the changes that way. Do you think that your other officers are affected by what they see unfolding in the Braidwood inquiry?
Elliott – Well, I don’t think there is any doubt about that. And, you know, I think all of us are following those developments very, very closely. You talked about, in the introduction, you talked about our paramilitary roots. And the need for a new environment, if I can put it that way. We certainly are encouraging people to talk, and raise questions. The documentary shows some clips of drill which is, you know, kinda old fashioned but we think serves a very useful purpose. But I think it’s important also to note, that we have very modern training. Our training at Depot for new recruits is very much based on scenario training. They actually, you know, we hire actors, we play out scenarios and we encourage dialogue and discussion and critique with respect to what the cadets do. And we encourage that, certainly that’s a very important part of our transformation initiative. I think that I am the first Commissioner of the RCMP to have my email address on my business card. I encourage people to make known their views, including where appropriate, directly to me. I hear from people across the country. Every time a significant incident happens, and certainly in wake of the tragic events in Haiti, and the loss of our two officers. You know email has been very busy. We are a big organization but a very close knit organization.
Anna-Maria – And you do make the point that you have been reflective in trying to make changes. I just have a couple more things I want to ask you about tasers specifically. The CBC’s own research showed tasers malfunction more 10% of the time. The RCMP has, what is it about 2500 electronic stun guns? Something like that. What are you doing to test them as they age?
Elliott – Ok, well we are actually not only testing tasers as they age, but we have undertaken testing of all our CEWs, as we call them Conducted Energy Weapons, and we are working with other police agencies in all the jurisdictions in Canada to set standards and to have a regime for the on-going and regular testing of tasers. I should say that it is unfortunate that so much of the discussion around the RCMP is about tasers. That is an important aspect but our transformation initiative and who we are and what we do is so much broader than that.
Anna-Maria – But you do understand the public concern. Plus you know, you talk about public oversight. It has been very difficult to get the RCMP on the record on these issues as the public watches it unfold.
Elliott – Well, with respect I must disagree with that. There is a very public inquiry. The RCMP has been very actively involved in both phase one and phase two of the inquiry. There has also been an examination by the Commission of Public Complaints against the RCMP. I think there is very little, if anything that is not been before either the CPC, Public Complaints Commission, or Mr. Justice Braidwood.
Anna-Maria- And as you work towards change, is there internal resistance?
Elliott – Well, I guess the short answer to that is yes. But I don’t find that is surprising and I think in fact that the overwhelming majority of members of the RCMP welcome change, and are anxious for change. That is certainly what the Commission established chaired by David Brown, that’s certainly what I found when I was appointed Commissioner and I went around the country. I think that we have a number of people who are frustrated by what they see as the slow pace of change. But I think frankly we have made progress that even a lot of folks inside our organization aren’t even aware of. We are working on, we are actually drafting a fairly comprehensive report on our transformation. And in discussions with individual constables for example, I remember being in Iqaluit and a constable saying to me “nothing much has changed here Commissioner”. And I said “Well two years ago, how many vacancies were there in the division and how many non commissioned officers in charge of detachment vacancies were there?” And the answers to those questions, by the way, were in about half of our detachments in Nunavet two years ago the NCO position was vacant and our vacancy rate overall in the territory was probably in excess of 20%. All of those positions have been filled. We’ve also significantly changed our policies and our compensation regime with respect to people working in remote locations and being on call. And the reaction to that from this Constable was “Gee, I didn’t think about it that way, I guess a lot has changed”. A lot has changed, a lot more is changing. And I think we are on the right track.
Anna-Maria – William Elliott, thank you for spending time with us today.
Elliott – Thank you.
Anna-Maria – That is William Elliott, he is the Commissioner of the RCMP.
