9-8-8 (part one): About Canada’s suicide crisis helpline

Transcript

Transcript

[Music]

Megan Beahan: Welcome to Healthy Canadians, your space for nuanced conversations and expert insights into the health topics that matter to us all. I'm your host, Megan Beahan. Here with me today is Alex Newman, producer and co-host.

Alex Newman: Hey Megan, how you doing?

Megan: I'm good, how are you?

Alex: Pretty good. I was thinking about it a bit today given the topic that we're tackling today. I think sometimes when you need help the most it's probably when it's the hardest to reach out and actually ask for it, right?

Megan: I think that's true and today we're talking about a really important resource that is designed to help with that, and that's the 9-8-8: Suicide Crisis Helpline. Our guest is Dr. Allison Crawford, she's the Chief Medical Officer for the helpline and we're going to be joined by a responder who works there.

Alex: That's really important and I think that'll be a unique perspective. Today is part one of a two-part series. We're going to focus a bit on the higher-level stuff in terms of like, what is 9-8-8? Why is it needed? Who is it serving? All of those kinds of things.

Then in part two we're going to dig into a bit more of the experience of what happens when you actually call: who do you talk to? What sort of things can you access? All of those things.

But before we jump in just a quick word from us. although Healthy Canadians is produced by Health Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada, what we discuss won't always reflect the official policies or positions of the Government of Canada, that's okay, these are conversations not news releases.

Megan: Let's talk about 9-8-8.

[Music]

Megan: Hello Allison and Aaron, thank you so much for joining us on Healthy Canadians today!

Dr. Allison Crawford: It's really fun to be here, thank you.

Aaron: Thank you so much for having us.

Megan: Allison let's start with you. You're the Chief Medical Officer for 9-8-8, how did you get that job?

Dr. Crawford: Oh, really good question! Well, I've been involved since 9-8-8 started as Talk Suicide Canada, also a sort of precursor to the national 9-8-8. I've been involved in that and in launching the 9-8-8 service. And I really have a role to kind of help oversee the clinical aspects of 9-8-8, and the policies and the procedures and got the title to go with that role.

Megan: Excellent thank you! And Aaron, maybe you could tell us a little bit about what you do at 9-8-8?

Aaron: Yeah, so hello everyone, my name is Aaron, pronouns are he/him. I'm a 9-8-8 National Crisis Line responder. So, what I do is that I answer calls and texts of service users who chat in and call in to 9-8-8 who are needing some support and just some crisis intervention related to thoughts related to suicide, or just kind of things that are going on in their life.

For me kind of how I ended up in this role is that I was a volunteer at a crisis line organization since August of 2020. For me as well I got into this field as a whole where I graduated with a bachelor's in psychology and was just involved with a lot of mental health aspects on campus related to destigmatization campaigns with advocacy and also with some research on how to better support incoming postsecondary students who are experiencing suicidal thoughts and behaviors. This role kind of came along and I applied for it and now I'm here and just helping some Canadians with what they're going through.

Megan: Very cool! And what does a typical look like, Aaron as a responder, or a typical day for you Aaron?

Aaron: Yeah, for me I would say going into my workplace and just getting to check in with my supervisors and some colleagues that I'm seeing in the office and catching up with them for a little bit. Setting up my workstation, getting my notes ready, the apps that I'm using all prepared. And then taking some calls and or texts depending on what that day I'm scheduled for.

And yeah, I'm able to talk to people who are experiencing thoughts of suicide, potential plans or timelines and things like, that, and I help with de-escalating what's going on and potentially helping with safety planning and scheduling follow-up calls and all those things as well.

Yeah, just going through interactions, doing some documentation, and then just connecting with colleagues to deep brief afterwards. And yeah, that's kind of the high-level gist of what I do in a day, but I can definitely talk more about it as we move into the podcast.

Megan: That's great. And Allison, maybe you could tell us a little bit about your training or your background and why you're so passionate about 9-8-8?

Dr. Crawford: Yes, so I'm a psychiatrist by training and also a health researcher. But I think I got very interested in this area working in the community. Most of my training was in a hospital setting and then after I graduated, I worked a lot in rural communities. In Nunavut, in Northern Ontario, and really got to see what mental health was like, kind of experienced in day-to-day life and realized that not everyone has access to full mental health services and certainly not if they're in crisis.

I got very involved in suicide prevention and different aspects of that and saw this as a gap in Canada, something that was happening elsewhere, having an accessible three-digit line. Well, we didn't know then it would be three digits, but having an accessible number to call if you are in crisis, no matter who you are or where you are.

Megan: So, what is 9-8-8 exactly?

Dr. Crawford: Yeah so, the full name is 9-8-8: Suicide Crisis Helpline which I feel says a lot about it. So, it's a three-digit number that anyone in Canada can call and receive support by a live responder in English or French, no matter who they are or where they are.

Our focus really is on suicide prevention, but we also like to say there's no wrong number. We answer every call, but our focus is really suicide prevention and connecting with people when they're in distress.

Megan: Excellent, and could you tell us a little bit about why that is so important right now? Why do we need this in Canada right now?

Dr. Crawford: Yes, a lot of people talk about the COVID-19 pandemic and definitely I know even during that time working in the crisis line context we saw- and I'm sure Aaron you saw and have heard about this- a lot more distress. People really needing somewhere to connect. But I think it really predates that, and the research that we have also shows that for about the last 10 years rates of mental health related concerns have really been climbing in all groups across Canada, but especially among the young and older people as well. So, I think we need something, I don't think it's the whole solution for what we need but we definitely need something.

Aaron: Yeah, if I may kind of jump in too...

Megan: Yeah!

Aaron: Especially with 9-8-8 and just with crisis lines as a whole, there's a lot of different features related to crisis lines that help with that accessibility piece. For example, given that we have the call and the text modalities that's where I know some of my peers were like, "I don't want to call, I'd rather text people". Or I know other people are like, "I'd rather call instead of text". So, to have these two different modalities helps with reaching a lot of different audiences across Canada.

Really again speaks to that accessibility piece for supporting people's mental health and even with my experiences and just talking with people during my volunteering and with 9-8-8 is where that piece of them talking to a stranger helps a lot too. Where a lot of people tell me that, "I wouldn't have shared all this with people that I know in my life". They don't want to make people feel concerned for them and for them to have access to this as well just to speak to someone who they can just let things out and talk with someone. Again, that accessibility piece is really important, and they don't have to make an appointment, they don't have to commute to a specific place, they can do it from the comforts of their home. So again, that brings things to where service users are at to help them out with what they're going through. So yeah, just adding on to this accessibility piece. It's really important, especially right now.

Megan: Yeah, so I'm hearing it's accessible, it's anonymous, you're getting in contact with people who are trained to have these sorts of conversations. How is 9-8-8 different than other services available? How does it stand alone from other things?

Dr. Crawford: Right, well you just reminded me to talk about the fact that it is a network of providers and I think that makes it very special as well. It helps to keep a community-based focus on suicide prevention so it's not a central call center. It's almost 40 partners in every province and territory in Canada that provide this service through the 9-8-8 number, so they're very familiar with their communities and the needs of their communities.

All of those services together I think do give it a unique flavor, like, you will get your call answered close to home and you can still call all of those services as well. So, there are other crisis and distress lines, some serve a specific population or different needs. But the focus of 9-8-8 is really on suicide prevention and I think that makes it unique.

Megan: Okay so if you're not sure who to call also you can always start with 9-8-8, right?

Dr. Crawford: Yes, that's a great way to put it and the three-digit number makes that very easy. We hope that's a number that everyone comes to know, and that they will call there if they don't know who to call.

Alex: Yeah, thinking about the accessibility piece too it strikes me that both Aaron, when you mentioned being able to text too, it's interesting that those kind of simpler things like, the ability to use different modalities or just having a three-digit number. I mean we know how ubiquitous 9-1-1 is, everybody knows 9-1-1 and hopefully that becomes true too with 9-8-8, that it's just something we're all aware of all the time, right?

Megan: Yeah. And I'll start with Allison and then I'll ask Aaron too, when you call 9-8-8 who are you talking to and how are they trained or prepared to have these conversations?

Dr. Crawford: Right, well this is why I'm really glad we have you here Aaron. You really give a flavor of who could be there. Responders are people from across the country, from all different kinds of backgrounds, different ages, some are paid, some are volunteers. You will always get a live responder when you call and that person will always be trained, and in particular, trained in suicide prevention.

Aaron you've already given a sense of this, but they know how to connect with people, how to engage, how to listen without judgment, and also how to look for risks for suicide and look for people's strengths as well. Collaborate with them, plan with them, and also instill hope in many cases, and listen with compassion and without judgment.

Megan: Thank you.

Aaron: Yeah that's basically just a lot of what Allison had mentioned, Dr Crawford mentioned too, is where for me even just kind of answering calls is where my mindset is knowing that this could be the first time that they have verbalized this outside of their head and that for me sets the tone for myself to know that this is a chance to support them. Because I am also aware how there is that taboo, right? There is that stigma related to suicide in our communities and they may have experienced that invalidation and that minimization of their experiences in the past so for me to be that chance to show them that, "hey, I am here to listen and I will be here to be in this space of pain and in this space of struggle and to be with you".

Sometimes when I ask them and I say like, "tell me more", that itself gives them the permission and tells them that this is a space that they can talk about this. I've had calls where when I kind of open these things up they get emotional, and that's where they don't tell me that this is a difficult experience for them but it's where I can pick things up through that and so that's how I frame how I approach these calls and text as well.

Text might be a little bit different in terms of what I can and can't hear. But just the ability to give people that space to know that there is someone who's empathetic and is willing to listen is really important. Similar to what Dr. Crawford mentioned too is where risk assessment wise, I ask some questions related to suicide and of course if there's any other risks that can come up like child abuse, domestic violence, self-harm. As a responder we also look into those things too, and not to be like, interrogative but it's for us to understand the context of the situation and to get caught up in how are they doing? Where are they're at right now? And then just identifying strengths and what works for them because in terms of crisis intervention and supporting people it's making sure that we work with them and meet the service user where they're at. As much as I could give an idea of what works for me, I'm not the service user. And that's where it's using the strengths of the service user and using what works for the service user to make it so that the plan to stay safe, or the plan to be healthy, or the plan to be better works for them and they are more willing to work on that after the call or the text.

Lastly, in terms of the safety planning piece, if there's any risk for suicide that comes up, that's where responders like, me would offer to develop a safety plan with service users as a way to help service users stay safe and check in with them about how they're feeling and then let them go to the rest of their day. So that's just a little snippet of what I do on the responder side of things.

Megan: Thanks Aaron. This is why it's so great to have you here, not only because you are so friendly and warm, but it gives a real face to who someone might be talking to if they called in, right? We live in a world where if you're texting a service, you don't know if you're talking to a bot or a person, or at least I have trouble sometimes determining, "am I talking to a real person right now?"

Aaron: I have had service users...

Megan: Yeah, they ask?

Aaron: I have had service users ask me like, "so are you a real person?". Like, yes, I am a real person.

Megan: Yeah, like, I want to know that I'm getting guidance from a real Aaron, right? And so, I think that's so cool. And then also maybe Allison you could also add on about why it's so important to talk to a responder that's in your area.

Dr. Crawford: Right, well one of the things that you said really resonated Aaron, that just to be with you. Because yes, we have all kinds of techniques and things we can do but I think that sense of being with someone is so important. And if you know their context I think that does help.

Now we also do have some very important providers, so it's not that local providers are the only people who can provide support. In fact, there's an option when you call if you are First Nations, Inuit or Métis you can choose to speak to Hope for Wellness, and so that's a national service. We also have Kids Help Phone who is one of our partners. It's not that people can't provide that service if they're not in the local area, but we think that's an important component and brings a different context, or an understanding of the person's context.

Alex: I guess that's another aspect of accessibility too, from a community perspective too, and who is able to access it. I know that must have been a lot of effort put into planning around that and thinking that through too, so you mentioned that. How does 9-8-8 make it more accessible for at risk communities, maybe racialized communities, you mentioned Indigenous communities as well, to access the services. Are there specific services that folks can access?

Dr. Crawford: Yeah, so that's something that's very important to us and I think it's ongoing, the development's ongoing. When we were planning 9-8-8, we spoke to over 50 communities that have intersectional identities, so 2SLGBTQIA+ communities, Indigenous communities, Black Canadians, people with different disabilities, we spoke with the Deaf and Hard of Hearing community.

And we continue to speak to people, first responders, health care providers, because different groups have different needs and things that would make 9-8-8 feel like, an inclusive and helpful space to them. I think that's going to be ongoing development that we do, but for now we have one specific service and that's for Indigenous peoples. But also, all responders are trained to really understand the importance of people's identities, and that identities are not one thing, we all have multiple identities and to really approach it not to understand every culture or every specific identity, but to have cultural humility and understand the importance of people's values and preferences. And that's part of making that connection, is understanding what's important to each caller.

Megan: Cool.

Aaron: Yeah, and something I might want to add to is I know that in terms of 9-8-8 we are focused on providing services in English and French. Something that I think people may not be as aware of or not know is we also offer language interpretation services and also ways to connect with people who are Deaf, Hard of Hearing and speech impaired too. I have been able to use a language interpretation services where someone can request a specific language to communicate in and responders are trained in be able being able to connect with a language interpretation service to facilitate that communication piece during this time.

And for people who are Deaf, Hard of Hearing or speech impaired, we do have training in terms of how to access video relay services, like, teletypewriter services and also just internet protocol services as well. So yes, we do focus on English and French, but knowing that we can connect with a service to have us talk and communicate in other languages and also to support people who are Deaf, Hard of Hearing and speech impaired as well.

Megan: That's excellent. I think it would be reassuring to know that if you're calling or you're texting in you know you're about to have a difficult conversation no matter what, but the person who's responding, the person who's picking up the phone is really prepared to have that conversation.

Dr. Crawford: Yeah, and I think that's part of being with someone, that openness that willingness...

Megan: Yes!

Dr. Crawford: To try to communicate in whatever way that person needs.

Alex: Yeah, I mean something Aaron said before that I thought was quite profound, thinking about that you might be the first person receiving someone verbally expressing what's going on inside.

Megan: Yeah.

Dr. Crawford: Sure.

Alex: That's a big piece, that's a big responsibility.

Dr. Crawford: It's literally lifesaving. If keeping something secret goes with shame and that really increased risks to share that makes connection and that's very protective.

Megan: For sure. Let's talk about some of the practical elements of 9-8-8. So, who is it for? Who is calling in? It's not just for people who might be in distress, right? You could be calling on behalf of somebody else.

Dr. Crawford: Right, the most important thing 9-8-8 is for everyone.

Megan: We'll say that a few times.

Dr. Crawford: Yes, you know, if anyone who is in any kind of distress or just thinking, you know, about thoughts of suicide or just thinking about things that are stressing them out or worrying them again there's no wrong number. So, we encourage anyone to call, and if you're worried about someone, it's a great resource. The responder will talk to you, talk you through that and, you know, support you to figure out next steps to help the person you care about.

Alex: I think that's so encouraging too because, I mean, just thinking, you know, trying to be empathetic towards someone who's calling I could see that as being kind of a barrier too right like, am I in crisis enough to use service, right?

Megan: Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Crawford: Right, yes.

Aaron: Yes.

Alex: Which is, you know, so important to know that, like, no just call. Like, call if you feel...

Megan: Yeah, there's no like, threshold that there needs to be to know... Aaron is nodding his head wildly right...

Aaron: Yeah!

[Laughter]

Megan: I think probably because you receive calls from a variety probably of different people in different stages or different needs, right? Maybe you could talk a little bit about that.

Aaron: Yeah, and that itself I think again speak in general with just crisis intervention is where a lot of people feel that. oh like, crisis, or like, oh like, suicide help lines, like, I have to be actively thinking about killing myself to call it's, like, yes please call.

Megan: Yes.

Aaron: But also knowing that there are also other checkpoints before that you can still connect with us. Like, even if you're having just either passive adiation. Like, active ideation that's still enough for us for you to call. That's where it doesn't have to get to the point of a specific crisis for us for you to call. You can do it proactively because I also have some service users where they're, like, I have a safety plan like, I like, am not going to hurt myself. But I just need to call right now because that's part of my safety plan.

Megan: Okay.

Aaron: That's part of my proactive way of addressing my suicide ideation and my suicide behavior so, like, that's where I think again, kind of debunking that where it's not just having to be at that critical threshold in a way to kind of call us. Like, you can still call us at any time and in terms of kind of like, that piece of someone who isn't having thoughts of suicide but is worried about someone in their life that is something that a lot of people also realize that is possible when they call in. Because, again, I've had callers where they're, like, I'm not having any thoughts of suicide but I'm worried about someone else.

Megan: Yeah.

Aaron: Like, is this the right number? Like, yes, it is the right number. And that's where, as responders, like, we're able to support these people who are worried about other people in terms of kind of talking like, about what a safety plan is. Talking about kind of like, what you should and shouldn't do when you're talking with someone who you're worried about. And even for me sometimes, I would say like, to encourage the person in crisis to call 9-8-8 or even that person and the person in crisis being together to call us. Because that's where that person who is worried about the person in crisis can be that bridge to accessing services where we know that people who like, are going through crisis might feel that they could like, figure things out on their own or that it's not like, serious enough if someone in their life recognizes and tells them that this is something that is concerning and gives them that feedback that this is something that they need help with or just need that support with having that person be that bridge between them and 9-8-8 is something that's really crucial and really important in terms of just supporting people's mental health. Yeah, similar to what Dr. Crawford said, anyone can call at any point. Yeah, that's just kind of my things that I've noticed as I've been on the lines.

Alex: I think that's like, such an important message too. Because I think part of it, in terms of accessing, or if you have a loved one, someone you care about, you want to help get help. Taking, like, figuring out that first step. Like, it's really important to have a number like this to call because I think a lot of the time it's just a matter of: I don't know who to call, or I don't know who to reach out to. Is it my family doctor? Is it...? So, yeah, I think that's a really important message too.

Dr. Crawford: There's another group of people that do sometimes call and that's people who've lost someone to suicide and that's also very important. That's a really... We know that for everyone who, you know, is tragically lost to suicide, that impacts... we used to say six people, but we now research has shown that it's over 120 people can be really impacted and that it actually increases risk for them. So, if that's something people are struggling with, 9-8-8 is also a place to call to get support.

Alex: Wow.

Megan: Very cool. So, I think what I'm hearing is that if you're thinking about calling, you should just call.

Dr. Crawford: Yes, yes that's right. You don't need to work it out.

Megan: And there's no threshold, you don't need to work it out yourself, go ahead and call.

Dr. Crawford: Just call.

Megan: And if you're calling on behalf of someone, you're going to be well supported or provided advice about how to support someone else.

Dr. Crawford: Exactly.

Aaron: Call or text, call or text.

Megan: Call or text. Yes, thank you Aaron for that reminder. Call or text. Allison, maybe you could give us a little bit of information. Let's say you're calling on behalf of someone else. What are some of the early warning signs? Or signs where you might be concerned about someone who's in distress or might have suicidal thoughts?

Dr. Crawford: Yeah, I always find this question challenging because we also we always know that everyone's different and sometimes people don't know and can feel a lot of guilt after the fact looking back. You know, should I have seen something? So really important to say that there's no one sign. However, you know if you have any... often it's a change in behavior of many kinds. Could be sleeping more, sleeping less, being irritable, being down, drinking more, consuming more substances, going through a very difficult time. We know that loss, especially things like loss of jobs, loss of relationships, can be really destabilizing for all of us. I always say, the most important thing is just ask. Just say: "I'm really worried about you. How are you doing? Is there anything I can do to help?" And, in fact, once you have that connection with the person not being afraid to ask: I'm worried? Do you ever think about suicide? Are you thinking about suicide? It will not you know for it will not contribute to someone thinking about that or contribute to the likelihood that they'll hurt themselves. It'll just open a conversation.

Megan: I would love to talk more about that about just talking about mental health and including suicide. So, opening up that dialogue you're saying is very important right? And checking in on people. I think there's been a belief that like, talking about it might normalize it right? And so, what is... Can maybe Allison you could talk about like, the difference between reducing stigma and having the conversation versus like, normalizing suicide. Like, how do we have those tricky conversations?

Dr. Crawford: Well, I think with just that kind of you know awareness and thinking. Is this, you know... as a society, are we making things better? Here research can really help. It's only you know probably in the last 10 to 15 years that we realize that the way we report on suicide, for example in newspapers, right, can really have an impact on the way people think about suicide and even their likelihood of engaging in self-harm or suicidal behavior. So absolutely it can you know... We have to have both conversations. Like, let's talk openly but then let's also be thoughtful and understand if how we talk is the helpful way to talk around stigma. I think a lot of it is just thinking about the language that we use. Language has a huge power. Even something like, "committed suicide" is something that many, many people still say. And that's really a very old term when it was illegal, or it was a crime to try to end your own life. So, you committed - did an illegal act. Something simple like that and taken for granted can really shape the way we think about something. So being aware of our language I think is one of the best ways we can combat stigma. Being willing to talk about it so that it's not a secret. It's not shameful. On the other hand, there are things, kind of speaking about suicide in a glorified way. Or, you know, a heroic way, or giving lots of details about suicide. Those things are actually quite... can be quite dangerous for the people hearing them.

Alex:I think it's interesting too. You... I remember someone... hearing, or there's an old turn of phrase or something about if we all had access to each other's thoughts in our heads, it would be a pretty wacky thing. That... we... place that we're in, right? So, I mean, Aaron, you mentioned before about, like, vocalizing those things and I think that's a really powerful tool to enable those conversations. Because I've had that experience. I've had some issues with anxiety in my life and stuff like that. Where what's going on in my head seems so rational, and then when I start talking about it, I'm like, "whoa, that wasn't rational at all!" When I have a chance to actually talk it through with someone, right? So, I think, like, that in itself is a really powerful thing to do.

Megan: Yeah, so keeping the lines of communication open and at the same time being really mindful of our language. And I happened to be on the 9-8-8 website yesterday, and I noticed there's a whole section on language and how to be mindful and how to talk to people, I'm sure Aaron knows that part inside out, right?

Aaron: Yeah, and I think something I would say, too, is, where I know that in terms like, the language like, "committed suicide" is still kind of like, the common term that we use an alternative, that we can use is "someone who died by suicide". And that's where that's something, an alternative, that we can give people to say like, "hey like, this person died by suicide" and that's where, again, there is not that connotation that they did something illegal, which, again, that "committed suicide" still has that connotation to an incarceration and just kind of that period of time when suicide was illegal. So "dying by suicide" would be an option to say and just having that person-first language, right? And that's something that's really important for us. So again, be mindful of that language and how we speak to people.

Megan: Yeah, and I think in the spirit of, like, open dialogue, and just picking up what you said, Aaron, it's like, you can talk to someone and have these conversations about checking in, and then you could also talk to them about 9-8-8 and the service that's available. And like, you said Aaron, have that conversation or call in together. I think that that's so cool because if you're scared to make the call yourself, you can have someone there with you. It can be anonymous, or you could be supported by someone, right?

Aaron: Exactly. And something I would say, too, is where, just a thought that I had when Dr Crawford was talking about, kind of just like, language. Just how we approach people is where, for people who are worried for someone else, and this is something that is like, out of their wheelhouse like, they have never experienced someone telling them that they have thoughts of suicide before, you can also call in to 9-8-8 and, like, talk with a responder to be like, "hey, like, how could I say this like, hey like, you can practice? Like, I haven't had a call like, this, but for example, like, I can imagine that someone could ask, like, "hey, like, can I practice asking if you're having thoughts of suicide with you on the phone?" And I was like, yes like, "you can do that". Rights so that's where like, 9-8-8 responders are familiar with how to talk about suicide and how to approach suicide. People who are experiencing suicidal thoughts and behaviors. So again, if someone's worried about someone and they don't know how to even start the conversation, connect with 9-8-8 to be kind of having us become that consult. It's like, "hey like, should I say this? How do I say this? Like, can I... is it okay to say it like, this?" Or is it like, having people practice? Because, again, having that space for vulnerability and for learning allows us to open up these conversations. Because I, as Dr. Crawford said, some people can feel that pressure right, to kind of approach someone. Because they don't want to say something wrong, or they don't want to do something that might in a way kind of be triggering or be invalidating to the person in crisis. So yeah, in terms of 9-8-8 like, we're also here to kind of talk people through how to talk about suicide and to give people that comfortability, too. So, yeah, again, being creative right, of how to connect with 9-8-8. Where it's, yes, also helping out with that suicide intervention and suicide prevention, but also that advocacy and just that the promotion to have more conversations like this as well.

Voiceover:To be continued in part two.

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Learn more

• Get Help | 9-8-8: Suicide Crisis Helpline
• Get Help Here: Mental health support
• The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health | CAMH
• Hope for Wellness Helpline
• Get support with these mental health resources - Kids Help Phone

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