Sommaire de l'étude du projet de loi - Comité permanent du patrimoine canadien – 23 septembre 2022, 13h00 – 15h00

24 septembre 2022, 13h00 – 15h00

Les commentaires des participants sont fournis dans la langue d'origine.

Rapport préparé par

Affaires parlementaires et du Cabinet, Patrimoine canadien

Sujet de la réunion

Projet de loi C-18, Loi concernant les plateformes de communication en ligne rendant disponible du contenu de nouvelles aux personnes se trouvant au Canada

Membres présents :

• Hedy Fry (LPC) Chair
• Martin Champoux (BQ)
• Lisa Hepfner (LPC)
• Anthony Housefather (LPC)
• Chris Bittle (LPC)
• Tim Louis (LPC)
• Michael Coteau (LPC)
• Peter Julian (NDP)
• John Nater (CPC)
• Kevin Waugh (CPC)

Témoins :

13h00 à 15h00

À titre personnel

• M. Michael Geist, titulaire de la Chaire de recherche du Canada en droit d'Internet et du commerce électronique, Faculté de droit, Université d'Ottawa
• Jen Gerson, cofondatrice de The Line et journaliste indépendante
• Rod Sims, professeur, Crawford School of Public Policy, The Australian National University
• Hebdos Québec
• Benoit Chartier, président du conseil d'administration
• Sylvain Poisson, directeur général
• The Logic Inc.
• David Skok, fondateur et président-directeur général
• Médias d'Info Canada
• Paul Deegan, président et chef de la direction
• Jamie Irving, président du conseil

Sommaire :

M. Michael Geist : titulaire de la Chaire de recherche du Canada en droit d'Internet et du commerce électronique, Faculté de droit, Université d'Ottawa

• Concern with Bill C-18 on how it's framed and drafted
• Approach to the use of news articles extends far beyond what a reasonable person would consider use
• Subclause 2(2) covers both reproduction of any portion of a news article and facilitating access to news by any means
• Astonishing number of standards and bargaining rules established by the government or the CRTC in the bill
• Bill C-18 risks increased misinformation: The definition of “news content” contains no standards or links to professional journalism. The definition, is different in the English and French language versions of the bill and could incorporate blog posts, opinion pieces and other content
• Bill is offside several treaty and constitutional obligations: Clause 24, excludes copyright limitations and exceptions from the bargaining process, may violate article 10(1) of the Berne Convention

Jen Gerson : cofondatrice de The Line et journaliste indépendante

• The bill adopts a very ancient complaint of newspaper publishers, that aggregation-based news websites and social media networks are unduly profiting by “publishing” our content
• Form of rent-seeking behavior in which struggling media corporations are using every last iota of their dwindling financial and social capital to lobby for subsidies and regulations
• Canadian publishers themselves who will be harmed by losing access to a major distribution hub
• The more the federal government tries to help the media, the more it risks hurting the credibility
• Not a neutral market-based approach
• Concerns about making media outlets dependent on revenue that is subject to the whims of the government in power
• C-18 will inevitably favor incumbent media players over innovative models, small outlets, and news start-ups

Rod Sims : professeur, Crawford School of Public Policy, The Australian National University

• Based on the Australian experience with its News Media Bargaining Code, Bill C-18 should be strongly supported
• Australia's Code has been extremely successful in achieving its objective
• Three essential features of Australia's Code, included in Bill C-18: if negotiations are unsuccessful, there is recourse to final offer arbitration; non-discrimination, if deals are done with one media business, then deals must be done with all; and the ability to collective bargain

Hebdos Québec : Benoit Chartier; et Sylvain Poisson

• Les géants du Web ont cannibalisé les revenus en n’assumant aucune des responsabilités sociales et fiscales qui s'y rattachent en contrôlant des algorithmes

The Logic Inc. David Skok

• It is a backstop, forcing publishers and platforms to come to the table for fair, equitable and transparent agreements that don't privilege only those with negotiating power.
• Bill C-18 is a pro-competition bill
  • Without regulation, publishers that have already signed secret deals are depending on the good faith of big tech firms to keep them in place

Médias d'Info Canada : Paul Deegan; et Jamie Irving

• Significant imbalance of power between tech giants and Canadian news outlets
• Bill C-18 allows to negotiate collectively
• Comprend un mécanisme d'exécution
• Google and Meta have roles to play in the news media ecosystem going forward.

Questions :

John Nater CPC

• Could you expand on that a little bit in terms of where this bill may be going down perhaps a slightly skewed path in terms of where the funding will be directed?
  • Geist : The definition that is used in this legislation goes far, far beyond that. It speaks merely to facilitating access to news, putting it in an index with even just a portion of a word.
  • Gerson : When we say that Google and Facebook are in competition with news media outlets, we're not in competition for content, we're in competition for revenue. That's why the business media's business model fell apart. It wasn't because Google and Facebook started stealing the content; it's because Google and Facebook started providing a better platform for which individuals could advertise on—they manage to provide more attention. So, I wish we could just be a little bit more candid about that.
• What are your thoughts on the inclusion of the public broadcaster within this but also the CRTC as the one to administer it.
  • Geist: I don't think this is the CRTC's bailiwick in terms of the role that it plays. It sets an enormous number of standards and I think there's reason for concern for that role.

Lisa Hepfner (PLC)

• Tell us what life is like for journalists in Australia today compared to what it was like before this legislation. I know we've heard a little bit about this from other witnesses, as well as yourself today, but today it's tough to keep a job in journalism. I'm wondering what it's like in Australia.
  • Sims: It's transformed the journalism landscape in Australia. It's gone from pessimism to optimism. We've got different readouts on where money's gone up to, I mentioned the Guardian, a 50% increase. The Guardian is a new player to Australia. They're about a middle-sized player and they're of course backed up by Guardian U.K. This has helped them enormously get into new areas. It's also helped the Australian Broadcasting Commission get into a range of regional media, but just the general sense of journalism is that there's jobs now, it's a sense of optimism. Previously, there was a profound sense of pessimism.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Parlez-nous de l'état du milieu des médias écrits, particulièrement les médias que vous représentez, qui sont des médias régionaux. J'aimerais que vous me parliez un petit peu de la situation économique de ces entreprises, notamment au Québec, mais je pense que c'est assez similaire à ce qui se passe dans le reste du Canada
  • Chartier: La situation, monsieur Champoux, est critique présentement dans la presse hebdomadaire québécoise suite à l'envahissement des réseaux sociaux depuis, je pourrais dire, 2014 ou 2015, on a une forte érosion du revenu publicitaire, ce qui met en jeu totalement nos salles de rédaction et la santé de nos journalistes au Québec. De plus en plus, on va retrouver des déserts journalistiques dans plusieurs régions du Québec. Je ne crois pas que des déserts journalistiques soient une bonne chose pour la démocratie canadienne et la démocratie québécoise.
• En Australie, est-ce que les petits ont pu négocier individuellement ou, pour arriver à des ententes, ils ont absolument dû former des coalitions pour négocier?
  • Roughly half of them have got together and bargained collectively and the rest have done deals individually. It's been their choice whether they feel they have the capacity, but the really small ones had to bargain collectively. But that's worked fine.

Peter Julian (NPD)

• Can you give us some examples of the smaller media players, how much that $200 million has gone to medium and small players and what you would suggest in terms of improvements to this legislation to ensure that the small community players, the community newspapers and community media actually fully benefit as you say has largely happened in Australia.
  • Sims: Facebook has done deals with the four larger players and I think virtually all of the smaller players, but there's a few very small ones left out. But they've certainly done deals with Country Press Australia, and they've done deals with Australian Community Media, and they've done deals with a whole lot of other players who I won't mention because you would never have heard of them. So if Facebook's main area they haven't done deals is with two medium sized players, one is the Australia Special Broadcasting Service which is a multi-cultural service owned by the government, and I think there's a chance that Facebook would now be designated under the Code which would force them to do those deals. I think the way the Canadian legislation is worded would ensure that large, medium and small get deals.

Rachael Thomas (PCC)

• Mr. Sims has said that Bill C-18 is about protecting journalism. Others at the table have said that it's about protecting democracy. I'm just wondering if you care to comment based on your expertise.
  • Geist: If this was a bill about journalism, I think there would be a lot more support for it. We should be clear it's not. It mentions the word “journalism” once with respect to qualified journalism organizations. It has three sections that mention journalists. It's not about journalism or journalists. It's about funding some of these legacy media organizations. In fact, there are no standards with respect to journalism at all, and you need to contrast that with what the government has approved with QCJOs, the qualified Canadian journalism organizations, which sets a wide range of standards to ensure what you are producing and incentivizing the production of is high-quality journalism. There is none of that in this legislation.
• One of the things that you've pointed out as well is the lack of clarity in terms of terms used within this bill, for example, “news content”. You've gone on to question whether or not Bill C-18 is even constitutional. So I'm wondering what impact would this lack of clarity have. Why do you think we're in this situation?
  • Geist: I've already noted there are at least a couple of examples and there may well be others, where the English version and the French version don't align, creating potential confusion as to what actually is intended by the government as part of this bill. But beyond that, it is vulnerable with respect to our agreement with the United States quite clearly. It is vulnerable with respect to our international obligations under copyright. I must say I find it astonishing that we would effectively say that certain parties don't have rights of quotation, so that you have to set it aside for the purposes of negotiation. This is a musthave within international copyright law, and yet that's been excluded. I should note that is something that you do not find in the Australian legislation. That's a made-in-Canada violation of international law. Then, from a constitutional perspective, I struggle to see how this even fits within traditional powers of the federal government. As I say, not broadcast, not telecom, not copyright news isn't something that is traditionally within that purview.

Anthony Housefather (PLC)

• Messieurs Chartier et Poisson, croyez-vous que cette Loi ait un rapport avec le journalisme?
  • Chartier: Oui. Cette Loi n'a de rapport qu'avec le journalisme. C'est tout simplement cela. C-18, c'est la défense, la santé et la raison d'être du journalisme au Canada, présentement. Ce n'est rien d'autre que cela. Dire que ce sont les grosses compagnies qui vont empocher l'argent de C-18 et que les petites n'auront pas une cenne, ce n'est simplement pas vrai. J'en suis une, une petite compagnie, moi. J'ai besoin de cet argent.
• I want to come to some of the myths about this bill. First, there's this myth that it will stifle innovation. You did a start-up. You are an innovator. Do you feel that this bill stifles innovation?
  • Skok: This bill helps innovation still exist. I've heard other witnesses talking about re-litigating the past about news organizations. I've been in those newsrooms as well, in the past. This isn't about re-litigating the past. These deals have already been struck. This has already happened. Google and Meta didn't have to strike these deals, not link tax deals, I might add, just licensing deals. They didn't have to do any of that. They chose to do it. They've picked their winners already. What this bill does is it helps to level the playing field and prevent those winners from getting the distinct advantage.
• Croyez-vous qu'il y aurait des problèmes avec votre intégrité de journalisme indépendant à cause de cette loi?
  • Chartier : Non, aucunement, il y a toujours eu un mur de Chine entre les salles de rédaction et les éditeurs ou les propriétaires des journaux. Pourquoi y aurait-il une dépendance due à cette loi? Je n'y crois pas.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• D'après vous, et je pourrais poser la même question à Hebdos Québec, mais est-ce que les plus petits joueurs des médias écrits, des hebdos particulièrement du Québec et du Canada, vont être en mesure de tirer leur épingle du jeu individuellement? Ou avez-vous l'intention contraire de vous former en coalition pour avoir un bloc de négociation plus fort quand viendra le temps de négocier avec les géants du Web? Comment entrevoyez-vous la négociation?
  • Deegan : Nous voulons avoir un collectif avec tous les journaux du Canada, les gros, les moyens et les petits. Au Québec c'est intéressant avec La Presse, avec le chef de direction Pierre-Elliott Levasseur.

Peter Julian (NPD)

• Êtes-vous certain que le projet de loi C-18 tel que conçu va faire en sorte que ces hebdomadaires, même dans les régions éloignées, pourraient profiter? Sinon, quels sont des amendements que vous suggéreriez que l'on pourrait faire pour améliorer le projet de loi?
  • Chartier : Moi, je suis extrêmement convaincu. Tous mes collègues, mes 40 collègues éditeurs que vous avez dû croiser, probablement, à travers le Québec, qui sont propriétaires d'hebdos, vont tirer les marrons du feu très bien avec le projet de loi C-18, même si c'est des journaux en régions éloignées. Cela vient du fait, comme l'a mentionné M. Deegan, que nous allons négocier d'un seul bloc pour l'ensemble du Canada.

Kevin Waugh (PCC)

• One of the things that I witnessed is CBC is pilfering talent from the newspapers across this country. It's going to continue with this bill. I'm going to tell you right now. If you don't think CBC, which develops little or no talent on their own because they just pilfer from mid to lower newspapers in this country. That is an issue that this bill is going to deal with. I guess I'm going to start with News Media. Mr. Deegan, I know my statement is correct. I've seen it. It's going to continue. With this bill going through it will continue even more. We are going to get reporters with little or no experience put in rural Canada because there are no reporters. Your thoughts on this.
  • Deegan: It's a huge problem with the CBC in terms of pilfering talent. Local papers develop talent. Your own background, you know this first hand. Then they take them. They are making far more money with the CBC. It's a big issue. That's why it's important that we have I think this legislation. It will get us on a more firm commercial footing.

Tim Louis (PLC)

• The concern from these small news outlets is that they want to be reassured that they're going to be part of the collective negotiations with these tech giants. And it was very comforting to hear that in your opening remarks, you said that companies are feeling comfortable and they've moved from pessimism to optimism. Can you give some evidence, some numbers that how these companies are doing, especially the smaller journalist news outlets.

Prochaine réunion:

• L’étude du projet de loi C-18 se poursuivra le mardi 27 septembre 2022.