Summary of the study of the bill – Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage

On this page

• Committee meeting on May 24, 2022
• Committee meetings on May 30, 2022
• Committee meetings on May 31, 2022
• Committee meeting on June 1, 2022

Committee meeting on May 24, 2022

Report Prepared By

Parliamentary Affairs Team, Parliamentary and Cabinet Affairs
Heritage Canada

Subject of the meeting

Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts

Members in Attendance

• Hedy Fry (LPC) Chair
• Martin Champoux (BQ)
• Lisa Hepfner (LPC)
• Anthony Housefather (LPC)
• Chris Bittle (LPC)
• Peter Julian (NDP)
• Tim Uppal (CPC)
• Tim Louis (LPC)
• John Nater (CPC)
• Rachael Thomas (CPC)
• Kevin Waugh (CPC)

Witnesses

11:00 am to 1:00 pm

As an individual

• Peter Menzies

Corus Entertainment Inc.

• Troy Reeb, Executive Vice-President, Broadcast Networks

OUTtv Network Inc.

• Brad Danks, Chief Executive Officer

Association des professionnels de l’édition musicale

• Jérôme Payette, Executive Director

Skyship Entertainment Company

• Morghan Fortier, Chief Executive Officer

University of Ottawa

• M. Michael Geist, Canada Research Chair of Internet and E-commerce Law, Professor of Law

1:00 pm to 2:00 pm

As an individual

• Mme Irene Berkowitz, Senior Policy Fellow, Audience Lab, The Creative School, Toronto Metropolitan University
• Alain Saulnier, Author and Retired Professor of Communication from Université de Montréal

Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions

• Bill Skolnik, Co-chair
• Nathalie Guay, Executive director

2:30 pm to 4:30 pm

Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo

• Eve Paré, executive director
• Marie-Julie Desrochers, Director, Institutional Affairs and Research

OpenMedia

• Matthew Hatfield, Campaigns Director

Quebec English-language Production Council

• Kirwan Cox, Executive Director
• Kenneth Hirsch, Co-chair

Unifor

• Randy Kitt, Director of Media

Summary Panel 1

As an individual: Peter Menzies

• C-11 has left far too many definitions to the discretion of the CRTC.
• Should make it clear that the legislation only applies to companies with annual Canadian revenues of $150 million CAD or more.

Corus Entertainment Inc.: Troy Reeb, Executive Vice-President, Broadcast Networks

• The status quo of broadcasting regulation is outdated and unsustainable; this bill is critical to the preservation of the Canadian broadcasting sector.
• Canadian media companies should not have to pay Class 2 license fees when foreign digital media companies do not.

OUTtv Network Inc.: Brad Danks, Chief Executive Officer

• Online platforms must grant access to Canadian broadcasting services, CRTC must have the authority for effective regulatory oversight of platforms in the following areas:
  • 1) ability to set terms and conditions for online distribution platforms
  • 2) ability to create adaptable rules governing distribution, and
  • 3) ability to resolve disputes regarding online distribution services.

Professional Music Publishers' Association: Jérôme Payette, Executive Director

• Réglementation de CRTC est capitale pour le secteur de la musique francophone diffusée en ligne.
• La loi doit s’appliquer de manière équitable à toutes les entreprises.
• Amendements:
  • Recours au contenu canadien soit équivalent pour les entreprises canadiennes et étrangères sous 3.1(f)
  • Que les ordonnances du CRTC soient assujetties à la possibilité d’un appel au Gouverneur en Conseil
  • Plus de transparence chez le CRTC et processus d’audience publique pour le développement des ordonnances

Skyship Entertainment Company: Morghan Fortier, Chief Executive Officer

• Section 4.2 allows sweeping powers for the CRTC to regulate user-generated content and should be removed as it requires too much trust from Canadians.

University of Ottawa: M. Michael Geist, Canada Research Chair of Internet and E-commerce Law, Professor of Law

• Current Canadian content rules do not achieve their stated objectives, and our rules should be better aligned with our policy objectives.
• Need for legislative accountability and transparency.
• Principal issues include inclusion of Section 4.2 regulating even user content that generates indirect revenue.
• The bill as currently structured covers any audio-visual content anywhere in the world, legislation should require thresholds and limits and distinguish between curated and non-curated services.

Questions

Kevin Waugh (CPC)

• Fortier: User-generated content has been contentious. How would this bill effect your company and YouTube channel?
  • Fortier: We are still trying to understand why user-generated content is included in this bill.
  • Global discoverability is key for content creators; a lot of the broadcasting mandates and current regulation applies to the content rather than the platforms.

Lisa Hepfner (LPC)

• Reeb: Can you address trends in the journalism industry?
  • We must fulfil the requirements of the archaic Broadcasting Act, while competing with unimpeded foreign companies.
  • Loss of local advertising dollars which have migrated to YouTube and Facebook.
  • Blurry lines regarding professional activity; suggests clarifying thresholds regarding licensing fees and subscribers.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Payette : Vos réactions aux propos de Mme. Fortier?
  • Ce sont les entreprises et le processus de mise en ligne du contenu qui sont réglementés sous l’article 4.
  • On mélange la loi et la réglementation, on a beaucoup plus de confiance dans nos institutions tel que le CRTC que dans les plateformes.
• Fortier : Je vous donne la chance de répondre à Mr. Payette.
  • There has not been a clear, honest audit of what the digital landscape looks like today.
  • The bill is broad and contradictory, does not define “commercial activity” and user-generated content is lumped together to include my company and my mom’s vacation videos

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Payette : Si le projet de loi n’était pas adopté, quel serait l’impact sur le revenu dans votre secteur?
  • On ne sera pas capable de produire des revenus, nécessitera l’appui des fonds publics
• Critique valide, que les entreprises décident présentement la découvrabilité par des algorithmes non transparents?
  • Le problème n’est pas les algorithmes, mais que les entreprises priorisent uniquement l’aspect financier. Il faut ajouter l’aspect culturel dans leurs considérations.
• Reed: How will C-11 establish a level playing field?
  • Employment levels have declined in almost all Canadian stations.
  • We need to hold foreign competitors to same standards as Canadian broadcasters.

Cathay Wagantall (CPC)

• Dr. Geist: You have been critical of the bill of being “misleading,” could you elaborate on that?
  • Confusion about inclusion or intent of regulating user-generated content.
  • SOCAN has attributed all their growth last year to international streaming services.
  • We should have a conversation around the impact of streaming services and target appropriate contributions from this sector.
• Menzies: Are there negative ramifications to regulating the Internet?
  • What’s happening on the Internet does not really fall within the framework of broadcasting.
  • What we truly need is a new Communications Act.
  • If this bill is contentious, it will be subject to court appeals.
• Fortier: How will Bill C-11 harm digital content creators by playing with discoverability?
  • (ran out of time)

Chris Bittle (LPC)

• Payette: How will C-11 help audiences reach Canadian music
  • Pas de considérations culturelles dans les réglementations.
  • Concernant les chiffres de SOCAN mentionnés par Mr. Geist, elle collecte beaucoup plus de revenus qu’avant mais elle répartit beaucoup moins (que 10%) aux artistes canadiens.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Menzies : Comment la production audio-visuelle se porte au Canada?
  • (Se répond :) La production indépendante est en décroissance.
• Payette : Comment vous allez vendre le projet de loi au digital first creators?
  • Secteur de la musique pourrait être considéré comme digital first creators, ce qui nous concerne ce sont les plateformes de distribution pour le contenu local.
  • CRTC a plutôt tendance à ne pas réglementer.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Reed: Thoughts on fair treatment for independent producers?
  • Increase regulation on foreign competitors or reduce these layers of regulation imposed on Canadian broadcasting companies.

Tim Uppal (CPC)

• Menzies: Is the CRTC able to regulate online content?
  • The CRTC has many talented people, yet it does not have the tools to regulate user-generated content.
  • They will have to hire lots of people, build a new area of expertise so as to regulate Internet content, this could take about 5 years.
• Fortier: How would current bill (if passed) impact your channel?
  • Platforms operate on recommending content that audiences are seeking.
  • There are many other ways to grow content.

Michael Coteau (LPC)

• Danks: How will this legislation ensure greater equity within the distribution system?
  • We need to ensure that Canadian broadcasters can access online platforms, even in Canada.
• Payette: How will this legislation ensure that francophone content remains competitive in a Canadian space?
  • We need to get this bill adopted, with the latitude for flexibility, and decide the details later.

Ted Falk (LPC)

• Fortier: Please continue with your train of thought
  • We need to be very careful that we are distinguishing between new platforms and broadcasters.
  • Platforms like YouTube are free for content creators, allow for creators to own their IP and control their distribution.
  • We are extremely concerned that clause 4.2 will allows for algorithm manipulation.
• Geist: Can you articulate what you believe the government’s objectives are, and how they should have drafted the bill to achieve this?
  • Constitutional question around regulatory powers granted to CRTC.
  • This sector is not truly in crisis, according to the data.

Tim Louis (LPC)

• Payette: Decrease in publishing and songwriting royalties has had an impact on artists
  • Je suis d’accord, c’est une baisse énorme.
  • Il faut laisser la flexibilité au CRTC d’effectuer son travail, on ne peut pas laisser aux plateformes de s’auto-réguler.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Geist : Qui serait le bon organisme pour réglementer pour ce secteur?
  • The CRTC is the appropriate mechanism to regulate the broadcasting space, but user-generated content ought to be outside of this regulatory structure.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Danks: How did large foreign streaming services justify exclusion of Canadian content, and what recourse did you have?
  • Large foreign streaming services excluded LGBTQ+ content.
  • We cannot access these services in a regulatory capacity without the CRTC’s authority.

Summary Panel 2

As an individual: Mme Irene Berkowitz, Senior Policy Fellow, Audience Lab, The Creative School, Toronto Metropolitan University

• C-11 isn't visionary
• Does not support the Canadian narrative.
• Appui les anciennes façons de fonctionner
• On laisse entendre que le CRTC aura compétence sur tout l’Internet
• C-11 does not encourage the positioning of new media
• CRTC devrait se concentrer sur les anciens médias, anciens producteurs

As an individual: Alain Saulnier, Author and Retired Professor of Communication from Université de Montréal

• L’invasion des géants numériques au Québec a marginalisé les médias, langue et culture
• Mettre sur le même pied d’égalité les entreprises numériques étrangères et canadiennes
• Obliger les puissances à réinjecter dans les productions d’ici
• Protéger la souveraineté culturelle

Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions : Bill Skolnik, Co-chair et Nathalie Guay, Executive director

• Continuer de mettre en valeur les talents canadiens
• L’article 3.1 F instaure 2 régimes; Système à 2 vitesses
• Les ordonnances du CRTC doivent être assujetties à la possibilité d’un appel au gouverneur en conseil pour pouvoir être renvoyées pour nouvel examen
• Processus d’audiences publiques pour l’émission des ordonnances
• Modification à l’article 8 paragraphe 2 afin que les commentaires reçus soient disponibles

Questions

Kevin Waugh (CPC)

• What changed in your mind between C-10 and C-11?
  • Guay Certaines terminologies sont problématiques. On parle d’émission originale de langue française. La terminologie autour des CLOSM doit être ramenée dans C-11. Satisfait du bloc sur les réseaux sociaux de C-10. Besoin de transparence et de partage des données.
• I just want you to repeat, the industry and wow it flourished in YouTube. It’s an industry that is growing at a rapid pace.
  • Berkowitz: Canada is number 1 exporter on the entire platform. Competition is rising. Innovate our own policies.

Tim Louis (PLC)

• What Canadian have already done to protect the culture?
  • Saulnier : Le gouvernement a décidé de se doter d’outils d’un pouvoir de réglementation. Il faut être capable de contrer l’invasion du marché américain. Nous sommes de plus en plus marginalisés. Important d’avoir une réglementation pour que tous soient sur le même pied d’égalité.
• What about the artist that has a presence online? Would you consider them dependent on the digital platforms? What made our creators vulnerable?
  • Saulnier : Il faut trouver une façon autre de réguler cette présence de la musique sur des plateformes comme YouTube. Besoin de l’appui d’une loi comme C-11.
• How C-11 will be important to our culture and identity?
  • Skolnik: We are in favor of diverse culture expression.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Nous avons attendu longtemps avant de penser à réglementer. Qu’est-ce qu’on vous disait à l’époque lorsque vous disiez que nous devions réglementer?
  • Saulnier : Nos gouvernements qui se sont succédés avaient l’impression qu’il ne fallait pas contrer les géants du Web. Je pense que nous avons été impressionnés du pouvoir des géants. Plus on tarde, plus on maintient cette loi de la jungle.
• Si nous avions pris les choses en main plutôt, on aurait un marché très différent aujourd’hui?
  • Saulnier : Nous avons permis aux géants de s’établir sur notre territoire, mais nous ne sommes pas les seuls. Nous avons tellement tardé que nous avons l’impression que nous devons nous battre contre les géants. Nous devons rapidement passer à l’étape de C-11. Nos cultures vont être encore plus marginalisées sinon.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Si ce projet de loi ne passe pas, quel serait l’impact?
  • Saulnier : Nous allons marginaliser les cultures. Il faut accélérer les choses. Nous sommes menacés à l’heure actuelle.
  • Guay : Entre 2016-2020, les contributions au fonds des médias ont chuté. Diminution des dépenses pour les émissions canadiennes.
  • Skolnik: This isn’t new. It is important to maintain our own identity. It’s not mutually exclusive.

Tim Uppal (CPC)

• I’m hearing from a content creator that this Bill could hurt their ability to reach their audience here in Canada.

Chris Bittle (PLC)

• In one of your studies from 2019, you indicated that Canadian creators are rocking it on YouTube. How can we say they are rocking it if they are making less than a traditional artist?
  • Berkowitz: We also have 15% making more than $50 000. It is a very new platform for this amount of economic activity. Canadian artists are number one exporter.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Il est beaucoup question de confiance envers le CRTC. Est-ce que le CRTC a ce qu’il faut pour faire la distinction entre réglementer l’Internet et cibler les activités de radiodiffusion? Comment donner confiance au public?
  • Guay : J’ai confiance que le CRTC réussira à le faire.
• Comment allons-nous convaincre les libéraux d’ajouter cet amendement d’avoir recours au gouvernement en conseil?
  • Guay : Il faudrait regarder le nombre de recours accordés versus le nombre de demandes.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• The section 3.1F is giving for a streaming platform less obligations in terms au Canadian employment, I this a concern for you?
  • Skolnik: We are very concern about that possibility.

Summary Panel 3

Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo : Eve Paré, executive director and Marie-Julie Desrochers, Director, Institutional Affairs and Research

• La radio est un outil essentiel
• Support C-11
• Le projet de loi doit met fin à l’injustifiable iniquité en traitant différemment les entreprises traditionnelles de celle en ligne.
• Le projet de loi doit sécuriser le caractère canadien des entreprises traditionnelles, protéger les langues minoritaires, inscrire un objectif fort de recours aux ressources canadiennes et doit être technologiquement neutre pour inclure dans sa portée l’ensemble des services ayant un impact sur la souveraineté culturelle canadienne.
• Faut donner des ressources au CRTC pour remplir sa mission puisqu’ils n’ont pas trop de pouvoir. Besoin d’un appui massif.

OpenMedia: Matthew Hatfield, Campaigns Director

• We cannot treat the modern internet like traditional broadcasting
• User content still subject to CRTC control and it needs to be fixed by the government
• Our online rights must be legally entrenched, not informally promised.
• Minimal safeguard must be adopted
• Section 4.12 is the heart of the problem, needs to be removed altogether or for much more definite limitations to be placed on it. It must clearly exclude all of our podcasts, TikTok, YouTube channels and social media posts from this bill.
• Discoverability provision in section “..9.11” is major problem that doesn’t belong in a democratic society.

Quebec English-language Production Council: Kirwan Cox, Executive Director and Kenneth Hirsch, co-chair

• Support for C-11
• English programming in Quebec is at an all-time low
• Concern with language in the act regarding French and English-speaking communities

Unifor: Randy Kitt, Media director

• The government must implement the necessary measures to support the existence of a free and independent media and local news reporting
• On appuie le projet de loi, mais il a besoin d’un amendement à article 11.1.1.d pour créer un fond. Il faut lier le financement des nouvelles locales au niveau de la main-d’œuvre et du personnel local nécessaire pour produire cette dite nouvelle.
• Local news is in crisis

Questions

John Nater (CPC)

• You’re a citizens group. Give us your perspective as to what the public is saying regarding the bill.
  • Hatfield: they’re not against it but don’t want it to come to coast of their individual choices or their own content being potentially regulated by the CRTC. We would have preferred clearer instructions and definitions in this bill. Especially the definition of what is and isn’t Canadian content.
• What clarity would you and the Canadians like to see as to what would be considered and not considered as CanCon and how that would feed into discoverability system both on streaming platforms and on the “youtubers” of the world?
  • Hatfield: Should run through a public process. People want more answers and clarity and point system fixed up, the bill set up so it’s not imposing broadcasting regulatory obligations on Canadians in a way that’s inappropriate to the goals of the bill.
• The government ought to provide its policy directives sooner rather than later?
  • Hatfield: Yes, ASAP.
• You mentioned a definition change in terms of official language in minority communities. What impact that would have on the ground in Quebec and across Canada?
  • Hirsch: Change of definition makes common sense.

Anthony Housefather (LPC)

• We worked collaboratively in the last Bill with the communities to have the right wording and definitions that would work in both French and English. Can you advise as to what other organizations support this definition change?
  • Cox: APFC, FCCF, CDCE
• It would seem that that amendment would have broad consensus. I take not of that.
• Talk to us about the challenges those communities face and how they would be alleviated by the adoption of C-11?
  • Hirsch: C-11 is going to go a long way to save Canadian content businesses across the country but the safeguarding of the vitality of our communities is important.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Question de la place que prennent les créateurs qui sont plus présents sur les plateformes numériques. Qu’est-ce que vous pensez de l’article 4.2 et les demandes de modifications proposées?
  • Desrochers : On aurait préféré un projet de loi le plus large possible pour donner le plus d’outils au CRTC. C’est essentiel de ne pas aller plus loin dans les resserrements dans le projet de loi.
• Est-ce que votre confiance dans le système vient de votre expérience avec le CRTC? Est-ce que les craintes des nouveaux joueurs dues au fait qu’ils n’ont jamais eu à aller défendre leur point de vue devant le CRTC? Méconnaissance du système?
  • Desrochers : Le CRTC est très prudent avec ses décisions
• Avez-vous l’impression qu’on a faire avec une compagne de peur? La peur des granges plateformes?
  • Desrochers : Certainement

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Vous venez de dire que les plateformes ont le pouvoir de faire des carrières. Est-ce que vous croyez que les plateformes vont faire des bonnes décisions avec leurs pouvoirs pour ces carrières? Si on n’avait pas ce projet de loi, qu’est-ce que vous pensez de l’avenir de l’ADISQ et de l’industrie québécoise?
  • Desrochers : Je pense que non. On a besoin d’un cadre.
• Votre amendement est en surplus de ce qui s’en vient avec C-18?
  • Kitt: Yes. This isn’t about Facebook and Google, it’s about Netflix and Amazon.
• Discrimination or exclusion of OUTtv on some streaming platforms. Are you concerned with what would happen if this legislation wasn’t being brought forward?
  • Kitt: Absolutely.

Tim Uppal (CPC)

• Can you elaborate on why the rules designed for old television systems are not compatible for today’s digital media landscape?
  • Hatfield: I don’t think we’re considered enough, and it’s not considered as to what people actually want from their services. Canadians want something that expands their choice and not that limits their choice.
• In your view, is Canadian content currently discoverable for Canadians?
  • Hatfield: I guess it depends on the nature of your feed and what you’re looking for. People are asking for it to make easier to access feeds that highlight Canadian content and if it’s voluntary.
• Social media creators are concerned with C-11. Do you think the CRTC can properly regulate what Canadians see and the connection with other countries?
  • Hatfield: We are concerned, and we need to look at not just what will happen to Canadian content creators but what will happen to the non-Canadian audiences.

Anthony Housefather (LPC)

• Comment est-ce que la culture francophone serait mieux protégée avec C-11 au Canada et au Québec?
  • Desrochers : Notre paysage sonore est dans notre langue donc il est important de continuer la loi.
• Directive de la politique qui va sortir bientôt. Est-ce que vous croyez que c’est important qu’un groupe comme le vôtre soit consulté avant que la politique soit finalisée?
  • Desrochers : oui
• Quelles sont vos deux priorités en termes d’amendements?
  • Desrochers : l’article 3.1.f nous préoccupe beaucoup et le retour des audiences publiques et de retour de l’appel du gouverneur en conseil.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Processus qu’utilise le CRTC avant la règlementation. Est-ce que vous ne pensez pas que vous pourriez au contraire mieux entendre et comprendre en préparant une bonne représentation auprès du CRTC et ultimement tirer davantage de cette règlementation?
  • Hatfield: Certainly we will continue to engage at every step of this process. The scope left over in this legislation is astonishing and we would prefer to see tighter legal limits before we move forward to that next stage. Side note that Tiktok is not broadcasting.
• Les précautions dans la loi pourraient vous réconforter n’est-ce pas?

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Issue of local news and clause 3.1.f. Can you comment on those two issues?
  • Kitt: Employment is a big issue for Unifor. The only way to ensure that local news is funded is with feet on the street.

John Nater (CPC)

• Could you follow up more on how Bill C-11 might impact the ability to reach that global market and how that would impact those important groups (indigenous, racialized groups, etc) who might not find that success domestically?
  • Hatfield: A lot of the broadcasting legislations were built on a fear that it would be swamped by primarily American content and in the modern internet, it’s not really the US that is dominating that for us, we are participating in a global system in which we experience creators’ content all over the world. And our creators find most of their success outside of Canada so it’s very risky for a small country like Canada to encourage this model of prioritizing its own content.
• Any comments on that segment of the online community and that person who makes some monetary gains online but falls out of both categories?
  • Hatfield: We think people that are in that intermediate category should be able to access CanCon financial support, but they should not be subject to the full perimeters of broadcasting regulation.
• Do you think there should be some form of research or audit, or consultation done to find out more as to where Canadian content is currently? Before implementing any new measures.
  • Hatfield: It’s a good idea but we should have started this process by talking about what CanCon is.

Michael Coteau (LPC)

• Why is it essential for us to include social media platforms in C-11 and why is the regulatory flexibility under the bill so important to the music sector?
  • Desrochers : il faut s’assurer que quand une activité se fait sur un service et sur un autre service, qu’elle puisse être règlementée de façon équitable.
• Digital first creators, they are eligible for CMF funding.

John Nater (CPC)

• You mentioned a survey that currently being undertaken. Could you clarify who that survey is targeting and who’s conducting that survey? In terms of YouTube users.
  • Desrochers: It’s people living in Quebec who are 18 years old and older. It’s being made by “Léger” for ADISQ, which shows a strong support for this legislation.
• It would be beneficial to receive that data once the survey is complete.
  • Desrochers: Yes, we’ll share it once we have it.
• In terms of the opt-in provisions in regard to discoverability. Is that something that your organization would support? To toggle on or off.
  • Paré : pour nous c’est une question qu’on ne sait pas poser.
• More so the user of the online platforms.
  • Desrochers: it’s not something we will support. But we don’t expect for people to look for content from Quebec, we just expect them to look for content they might like and that might be something that’s made in Canada or Quebec.
• You want the content to be available but still provide the consumer with the choice to select song x or song y?
  • Desrochers : on ne veut pas empêcher les gens à écouter à ce qu’ils demandent.
• Do you see any way the discoverability and promotion will have a negative impact? Thinking specifically of Canadian content where one type of Canadian content would be promoted over another type of Canadian content?
  • Kitt: We take the position that Canadian content is important, and the discoverability of that content needs to be supported. They target and design those algorithms for maximum profit, not for my enjoyment viewing.

Lisa Hepfner (LPC)

• Can expand on your last comment?
  • Kitt: I’m not an expert on algorithms but discoverability is important.
• You’ve seen a decline in numbers of people employed in journalism over the years. Of the small percentage of people making money on YouTube, 60% of them make less than $10 000 a year, is it a viable career option for a Unifor member?
  • Kitt: Absolutely not.
• What can you tell us about how important local news and the fund you’re asking for?
  • Kitt: We need to adequately fund local news across the country and reach of our all communities.
• What do you see of the future should we not have a revived and renewed broadcasting act?
  • Desrochers : on voit une musique canadienne francophone complètement marginalisée qui va punir à rencontrer son public.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Avez-vous la certitude que cette règlementation numérique va continuer à l’essart des artistes qui sont les nouveaux artistes du numérique autant que pour autant les artistes du disque?
  • Desrochers : on a la certitude que ça serait un élément pour aider à notre musique.
• Le modèle de la radio traditionnelle cède la place aux plateformes de diffusion en ligne si on ne les règlemente pas en imposant des objectifs de découvrabilités, on risque de voir une érosion d’intérêt pour le contenu québécois francophone et canadien?
  • Desrochers : la réponse est oui.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Are you concerned regarding the testimony we’ve head today from OUTtv? The issue of algorithm transparency?
  • Hatfield: Platforms don’t have a “must carry” obligation for anyone’s content and we don’t think they should. We do get concerned when people are locked-in in a system. We think it’s important for the government to look into anti-competitive practices and consider applying those to some of these companies. We very strongly support to make algorithms transparent to their users, to researchers, to journalists.

Tim Uppal (CPC)

• Last week the CRTC commissioner admitted that “UGC” is in the scope of Bill C-11 and he added that there should be higher degree of trust in the CRTC as the regulator? Since the minister of PCH assured Canadians that UGC is not covered under C-11.
  • Hatfield: it’s been a long and frustrating conversation and we should all be on the same page. We do not trust that the CRTC has the public’s best at heart.
• Can you elaborate as to how C-11 will have a detrimental effect Canadian consumer’s ability to view content that they want to view online?
  • Hatfield: the more CRTC pursues to forcing officially designated Canadian content into our feeds, it could have an impact on people.
• What about smaller digital first creators or non-traditional artists?
  • Hatfield: the immediate concern is them being regulated while not having any of the financial benefits.
• Do you have any experience as to what funding under a YouTube process would like versus government application? As a smaller digital creator.
  • Hatfield: they wouldn’t even qualify under the current system.

Tim Louis (LPC)

• Cancon - Can you speak to some of the criteria that are included in this bill and what we can work towards as a new definition?
  • Desrochers : cette question ne doit pas nous arrêter à ce stade-ci.
• What difference can the web giants make for our Canadian artists in regard to cultural sovereignty?
  • Desrochers : Les besoins en financement sont immenses.
• What will the challenges be as a cultural sector to make sure that overlooked minority voices can be heard?
  • Hirsch: I do think there’s an openness to see the evolution and adaptation of what the definitions of Canadian content are, and they will evolve over time. We need more money in the system in order to be internally competitive.
• Would you be ok if that funding came from online broadcasters?
  • Hirsch: Absolutely

Committee work

The study of Bill C-11 is expected to continue next week. Three meetings of 5 hours each are anticipated.

Committee meetings on May 30, 2022

Report Prepared By

Parliamentary Affairs Team, Parliamentary and Cabinet Affairs
Heritage Canada

Subject of the meeting

Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts

Members in Attendance

• Hedy Fry (LPC) Chair
• Martin Champoux (BQ)
• Lisa Hepfner (LPC)
• Anthony Housefather (LPC)
• Chris Bittle (LPC)
• Peter Julian (NDP)
• Tim Uppal (CPC)
• Tim Louis (LPC)
• John Nater (CPC)
• Rachael Thomas (CPC)
• Kevin Waugh (CPC)

Witnesses

11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.

Canadian Union of Public Employees

• Nathalie Blais, Research Representative
• Tulsa Valin-Landry, Vice-President, Communications Sector

Forum for Research and Policy in Communications

• Monica Auer, Executive Director

Independent Broadcasters Group

• Joel Fortune, Legal Counsel
• Luc Perreault, Strategic Advisor

Music Canada

• Patrick Rogers, Chief Executive Officer

The Walt Disney Company

• David Fares, Vice President, Global Public Policy

3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.

Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists

• Eleanor Noble, National President
• Lisa Blanchette, Director, Public Affairs and Communications

Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations

• Catherine Edwards, Executive Director
• Amélie Hinse, Fédération des télévisions communautaires autonomes du Québec

Digital First Canada

• Scott Benzie, Executive Director

Directors Guild of Canada

• Warren Sonoda, President
• Dave Forget, National Executive Director

Music Publishers Canada

• Margaret McGuffin, Chief Executive Officer

Summary Panel 1

Canadian Union of Public Employees: Tulsa Valin-Landry, Vice-President, Communications Sector and Nathalie Blais, Research Representative

• C-11 comporte trop d’incertitude
• Amendements essentiels nécessaire
  • L’intention du parlement doit être plus clairement expliqué
  • FCFP Québec suggère amendement à l’article 3.1.a. pour préciser ce qui est un système canadien de radiodiffusion dans le contexte d’un marché ouvert sur internet. Proposons une description précise et des objectifs.
  • Élargissement du pouvoir règlementaire du CRTC au financement des nouvelles locales et de la télé communautaire
  • Renforcement de la politique canadienne de radiodiffusion à l’égard de l’emploi au Canada
  • Modification de la définition l’élément communautaire
  • Disposition permettant au CRTC de se pencher sur les tarifs des entreprises en ligne distribuant de la programmation afin d’établir une symétrie règlementaire avec les entreprises de distribution traditionnelle.

Independent Broadcasters Group: Joel Fortune, Legal Counsel and Luc Perreault, Strategic Advisor

• We support Bill C-11 but we’ve shared our proposed amendments with the committee.
• Our primary concern is that the Bill restricts the CRTC authority to supervise the critical element of online activity, the oversight of the distribution, discoverability and fair treatment of Canadian apps and services online.
• The CRTC should have:
  • the ability to set the terms of carriage
  • the authority to create terms of service that relate to the distribution of online services and that go beyond individual services
  • the authority to engage and dispute resolution involving online services and access to online distribution platforms

Forum for Research and Policy in Communications: Monica Auer, Executive Director

• Suggest changing 8 aspects of C-11 (shared with committee)
• Rather than weakening the CRTC decision-making independence, C-11 should strengthen it
• C-11 should require the CRTC to report annually on Section 3
• C-11 should require the CRTC to complete its investigations in a reasonable period

Music Canada: Patrick Rogers, Chief Executive Officer

• We support C-11
• We agree with the CRTC should not regulate the algorithm of online services or user generated content. We hope the committee will clarify the bill text to clearly reflect the minister’s stated intent.
• The bill can be amended to clarify the prohibition of the CRTC regulating algorithms, and the language regarding professional content can be sharpened to reflect the minister’s statement.

The Walt Disney Company: David Fares, Vice President, Global Public Policy

• Walt Disney supports amendments to be proposed by the Motion Pictures Association of Canada

Questions

John Nater (CPC)

• Shows that are made in Canada or discuss Canadian content but the CRTC doesn’t consider them as Canadian content. Could you expand as to how that is a challenge for Disney?
  • Fares: Problem with the point system in the definition of Canadian content. So, we need a flexible system around Canadian content that allows each one of us to contribute to the av-ecosystem with the service that we offer.
• Do you have suggestions for what parts of the legislation ought to be changed?
  • Rogers: Section 9.1.8 can be amended to make it more about the act and less about that section (algorithms). We can provide language as follow up. In regard to user generated content, we support that.
• Timelines of the CRTC. Given the new scope of responsibility, how do you see that affecting the CRTC’s timeliness?
  • Auer: It’s likely you’ll see continuous delays.

Lisa Hepfner (LPC)

• Can you speak to the current environment of small broadcasters up against international broadcasters?
  • Fortune: Very challenging. Challenges stem from the structure of the Canadian industry itself, not just the international environment.
• Could you describe why it’s important to support local independent broadcasters as well as the big guys?
  • Perreault: Negotiations are going well but some platforms are now moving towards exclusive categories.
• Comment est-ce que la loi de 1991 a protéger les arts et la culture au Canada? Est-ce que c’était important d’avoir eu une loi sur la diffusion?
  • Blais : C’était fondamentale.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Pourriez-vous expliquer votre proposition pour l’amendement à l’article 3.1.a.?
  • Blais : Trop d’incertitude dans l’article. Il faut spécifier qu’est-ce que le système de radiodiffusion maintenant que notre système n’est plus « fermé ».
• Pourriez-vous expliquer votre proposition pour l’amendement à l’article 3.1.f?
  • Blais : ça introduit des exceptions. Faut que l’emploi soit prédominante canadienne et au maximum. Les questions d’emploi ne sont jamais bien considéré par le CRTC.
• L’acticle 9.1.h. Quelles sont les conséquences si l’amendement que vous proposez n’est pas fait?
  • Perreault : Les services « aptn » devraient être disponible.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Pourriez-vous commenter sur l’importance des enjeux sur l’obligations d’emploi?
  • Blais : C’est important de réduire l’incertitude dans la clause 3.1.f.
• Ne pas considérer cet élément sera problématique?
  • Blais : oui
• L’importance du terrain de jeu plus équilibrer.
  • Fortune: there’s a gap in the bill. Substantial weakening of how Canadian programming services are provided in our own market.
• Where do you see the problems with the CRTC responding timelines? Are there other things that the CRTC should be doing to respond in a timeline way?
  • Auer: Critical for the commission to report annually on how it is implementing Section 3.1. and Section 5.

Kevin Waugh (CPC)

• The CRTC isn’t doing their job today and I’ve talked excessively about the CRTC’s inabilities. What are your thoughts?
  • Auer: I admire the commission staff working during difficult times but there’s a problem in leadership so we can’t blame the staff for the delays. Why can’t we have ongoing regular reports of the commission on what it is doing? Why don’t we know who is making decisions? It’s the chair who decides who decides.
• Ronnie Hawkins died yesterday. Is he a Canadian or an American?
  • Rogers: That is determined by the CRTC. His contributions to the music industry is important. Our members look forward to taking part of the discussions with the CRTC regarding the regulation of music and who will decide if it’s Canadian. We look forward to the discussion with the understanding that starting with radio isn’t necessarily where we need to begin.
• I worry about the radio industry.
  • Rogers: Radio is important but there’s an amazing amount of opportunity in streaming.

Tim Louis (LPC)

• Could you comment on the power that the platforms currently have as the gatekeepers of the access to pogroming services? Exercise their preference and discrimination?
  • Fortune: To be distributed on a platform, one must reach and agreement with the provider of the platform to access the public. We’re seeking for Canadian services to have meaningful access and to be treated fairly by these platforms.
• In your opinion, would the music industry be the same if we did not support the Canadian artists with Cancon and the radio? Would they have the same commercial success? How has Cancon and the radio made a difference on protecting our cultural souverenity?
  • Rogers: the internet is a different place than radio, the services that are provided digitally operate in a different function. The minister has it right with the desire with accessibility but not necessarily pushing.
• Would you agree that a larger fund available to Canadian artists who support our ecosystem from top to bottom?
  • Rogers: The internet has removed a lot of gatekeepers and Canadians find success all around the world.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Qui détient les droits aux productions canadiennes que vous mentionnez? C’est Disney?
  • Fares: Yes
• Combien des productions que vous avez produites au Canada sont en langue originale française dans les dernières années?
  • Fares: Currently, our productions in Canada are in English.
• Je veux souligner l’importance de protéger les choses moins payantes pour les entreprises de production mais qui sont importantes culturellement pour le Québec et le Canada.
• Comment peut-on améliorer le revenu des artistes dans l’univers de musique? Streaming vs disque
  • Rogers: we want to bring the best of streaming to Quebec and the country.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• How artists can actually be adequately remanured on what they produce. You say that the numbers are changing. Do you have numbers you can provide to the committee?
  • Rogers: the streaming platforms would be the best to provide that information.
• Please provide any additional information you may have regarding those numbers.
• You’re very supportive of the previsions of 3.1.f. around Canadian employment. Could you comment a but more of the importance of having Canadians employed in this industry to it benefits Canadians across the country?
  • Rogers: The structure that we have is the structure that the government is pushing on other players.
• We will have to consider Canadian employment moving forward.

Tim Uppal (CPC)

• What is it that would bring an international brand to Canada not only to create jobs but to create Canadian stories?
  • Fares: We already are investing heavily in Canada and hope to invest more. It`s a good market today and we hope C-11 will preserve a level of flexibility to continue to invest in the best way that we can contribute to the Canadian ecosystem based on the nature of our services.
• Are you concerned that other countries may respond with what type of content their populations start to see?
  • Roger: Canadian music is global music and the export of it is done under the premise that it’s available through the internet.
• How are Canadians finding the content online? The billions of views.
  • It’s the ability to engage with your fans directly through streaming.

Chris Bittle (LPC)

• Can you explain your recent statement at a conference regarding section 4 sub 2 of the 1991 Act?
  • Auer: The act was devised before the boom of internet. Parliament wanted to ensure that Canadian programming was available to all Canadians and that it could control the content that was available. These days, the legislation is still intact and but it’s up to the court to decide what the imparts mean..
• The CRTC hasn’t regulated in this ballpark to date?
  • Auer: No, because it decided to exempt online broadcasting from regulation.
• Many have focused on clause 4.2. but can you speak to the other areas in the act that excludes social media users?
  • Auer: From my perspective, C-9 attempts to clearly regulate broadcasters, not individual users. But there’s a distinction.
• Could you speak of the CRTC if the policy directive specially scope out user generated content? Will it prohibit them from scoping it back in?
  • Auer: I don’t think it would.

Rachel Thomas (CPC)

• Can you talk about the extent to which Disney has gone in order to generate Canadian content or content that would support Canadian creatives?
  • Fares: We believe that every production produced in Canada contributes to the health of the Canadian ecosystem.
• What’s the intentionality behind supporting Canada?
  • Fares: we are developing a Canadian programming strategy right now which is conducting by our team in Canada.
• If Bill C-11 were to come into effect, will it help you generate more Canadian content or would it hinder the work you’re already doing?
  • Fares: We are already producing a significant amount of content in Canada, it’s the market that’s driving us.

Michael Coteau (LPC)

• It makes it difficult for smaller companies to compete in the same space as a large company like Disney. How would you expect small and medium sized production companies to compete in the same space as Disney in Canada if there’s no distinction between the two?
  • Fares: We’ve helped build up local Canadian companies (Ottawa and Montreal). We see our work in the marketplace being complimentary to what goes on in the local market place.
• You don’t think there should be any distinction between Disney and small and medium sized Canadian owned production company?
  • Fares: C-11 is going to regulate Disney +. Not our production arms. Those are two different things are they not?

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Est-ce que la musique francophone selon vous est en santé sur les platforms numérique?
  • Rogers: (ran out of time)

Summary Panel 2

Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists: Eleanor Noble, National President and Lisa Blanchette, Director, Public Affairs and Communications

• Canadian Content at Risk
• Concern about Canadian content productions which are on the decline
• Maximize the use of Canadian talent
• Article 3 problematic, it creates a two-speed system
• Standardize the rules between Canadian and international productions

Canadian Association of Community Television Users and Stations: Catherine Edwards, Executive Director and Amélie Hinse, Fédération des télévisions communautaires autonomes du Québec

• Manque d’une définition claire pour ce qui touche le milieu communautaire
• Add the mention of non-profit
• Community media essential part

Digital First Canada: Scott Benzie, Executive Director

• Article 4.2.1 goes too far, because it includes the whole Internet
• You cannot separate the platform from the content
• Platforms must contribute to the cultural sector
• Discoverability issue
• The word result is problematic
• Digital creators do not qualify
• Algorithms should not be forced

Directors Guild of Canada: Warren Sonoda, President et Dave Forget, National Executive Director

• Amend to strengthen the requirements for the use of Canadian talent
• Article 3.1f ne pas abaisser la norme relative aux exigences. Créer une obligation de recourir aux talents canadiens

Music Publishers Canada: Margaret McGuffin, Chief Executive Officer

• Changer l’inégalité des chances des plateformes numériques
• Le CRTC doit avoir la capacité de réglementer le secteur des plateformes numériques
• Problème au niveau de la distribution

Questions

John Nater (CPC)

• Can you highlight few of the successes using Canadian platform?
  • Benzie: We can quote Bieber, Sean Mendes, The Weekend.
• How would discoverability impact success outside of Canada?
  • We should have a conversation about what should apply. There is a way to help people but discoverability is not it.
• What is it about the online platform doesn’t fit well into the traditional Broadcasting Act?
• What type of efforts have been made for digital creators (included in the process)?
  • The discovery clause is the major problem. I had more conversation with the Department. We are being heard.

Tim Louis (LPC)

• Quels seraient les critères importants pour notre souveraineté culturelle?
  • McGuffin: Interested in what Canadian content can look for music. We want to make sure that merging song writers are found. Having an infrastructure around them. We need to modernize how we find Canadian artists.
• Can you speak of traditional artists online has digital creators themselves?
• How can we ensure the system maximize the potential for artists and creators to have full careers and support them regardless of the platform?
  • We need to invest in them, educate them, engage in the platforms.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Parlez-nous du rôle que les communautaires pourraient jouer dans la couverture journalistique si le projet de loi C-11 reconnaissait leur valeur?
  • Hinse : Moins en moins de couverture dans les régions. Les grands médias n’ont pas les moyens d’avoir des représentant dans toutes les localités. Les médias communautaires sont implantés dans les communautés. Les médias communautaires sont sous utilisés par le système.
• Comment vont les discussions avec les grandes plateformes?
• C’est préoccupant que vous nous pouviez dire le nombre de personnes que vous représentez. Vous ne pensez pas qu’une consultation plus large sur les plateformes serait bénéfique?
  • Benzie: Always open to more consultation. Our francophone constituency does have unique needs and I’m looking forward to exploring further.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Could you talk about the importance of making sure that the bill does set a level plank field for an online platform company.
  • Blanchette: Having one standard definition is the way to go. Making it strong.
  • Forget: Having two standard is potentially harmful and unnecessary. No need to double.
• How important is it to amend C-11 so we have a clear obligation around community television that involve community members?
  • Edwards: We are looking for recognition.

Rachael Thomas (CPC)

• In your estimation, when you listen to the Minister says no user generator content is not captured but the CRTC say the opposite. What impact does that have on you?
  • Benzie: Uncertainty around our work. We want to be included in the legislation.
• How does this legislation could be fixed?

Michael Coteau (LPC)

• Do you know the algorithm from the platforms?
  • Benzie: No.
• How do you know that is so fair if you don’t know the algorithm? Do you think is a good thing for us to level the plank field?
  • Benzie: Can you define canadian content for me?

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Concernant l’article 3.1f, j’aimerais que vous élaboriez sur le sujet.
  • Blachette: Equalized for all creators.
• Dans les propositions du BQ, c’est de réintroduite l’utilisation du gouverneur en conseil, qu’en pensez-vous?
  • Benzie: I don’t know what referring to the government council is.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Does that not indicate that we need to step up for the level plank up?
  • McGuffin: We want to make sur that for creators, that they get the support. We need to make sure we are building and not just outsourcing in international companies.

Lisa Hepfner (PLC)

• Can you expand about the type of power that we are seeing from platforms?
  • McGuffin: We saw in Europe the miss information, that were made about the Copyright Act. We need to make sure that we are not misleading the public.
• What do you think about the power of platform?
  • Edwards: Algorithm are never neutral. We need to make sure that we all have equal access to platform.
• Can you give us the context about the Act in place and what it has done to our culture in place?
  • Sonoda: We need the same sort of Act to continue what we are doing. We still have more story to tell.

John Nater (CPC)

• Do you think the government should have a role in educating in algorithm?
  • Benzie: I do support algorithm transparency.
• Buying advertising versus playing with the algorithm, what is the difference?
  • When you’re buying advertising, you want your content to be identified.
• What is your opinion on the definition of Canadian content?
  • Sonoda: We have a definition that is flexible.

Chris Bittle (LPC)

• Which tech company are you receiving money from?
  • Benzie: Tiktok and YouTube.
• You’re taking money for a status quo. How is this not extreme conflict of interest.
  • We take no government funding.
• When you filled it out did you informed the lobbying commissioner that you represent or taking money from American company?
  • I don’t remember.

Committee Work

The study of Bill C-11 is expected to continue tomorrow. Three meetings of 2 hours each are scheduled.

Committee meetings on May 31, 2022

Report Prepared By

Parliamentary Affairs Team, Parliamentary and Cabinet Affairs
Heritage Canada

Subject of the meeting

Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts

Members in Attendance

• Hedy Fry (LPC) Chair
• Martin Champoux (BQ)
• Lisa Hepfner (LPC)
• Anthony Housefather (LPC)
• Chris Bittle (LPC)
• Peter Julian (NDP)
• Tim Uppal (CPC)
• Tim Louis (LPC)
• John Nater (CPC)
• Rachael Thomas (CPC)
• Kevin Waugh (CPC)

Witnesses

11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.

As an individual

• Philip Palmer
• Oorbee Roy, Digital Content Creator
• Pierre Trudel, Professor, Université de Montréal

Internet Society Canada Chapter

• Timothy Denton, Chairman

3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.

As an individual

• Justin Tomchuk, Producer

Alliance des producteurs francophones du Canada

• Carol Ann Pilon, Executive Director

Canadian Association of Broadcasters

• Kevin Desjardins, President

The Wyatt Sharpe Show

• Wyatt Sharpe, Host

6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m.

As an individual

• Sara Bannerman, Canada Research Chair in Communication Policy and Governance and Associate Professor, McMaster University, McMaster University
• Gordon Sinclair

International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees

• John Morgan Lewis, International Vice-President and Director of Canadian Affairs

Motion Picture Association-Canada

• Wendy Noss, President

Netflix

• Stéphane Cardin, Director, Public Policy

Québecor Média inc.

• Pierre Karl Péladeau, President and Chief Executive Officer
• Peggy Tabet, Vice-President, Regulatory and Environmental Affairs

YouTube

• Jeanette Patell, Head of Canada Government Affairs and Public Policy

Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

• Ian Scott, Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer
• Scott Hutton, Chief of Consumer, Research and Communications
• Sheehan Carter, Director General, Strategic Policy
• Rachelle Frenette, General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director

Summary Panel 1

As an individual: Philip Palmer

• Contrintuitif de l’extension de la loi a l’ensemble de l’Internet
• Not based on Canadian institutional law
• N’exploite pas d’installations de télécommunications qui traversent les frontières
• Harm to those who create and distribute content on the Internet
• C-11 problems cannot be solved by regulation

As an individual: Oorbee Roy, Digital Content Creator

• Not eligible for Canadian content
• The wording of the bill needs to be clearer
• Lack of understanding

As an individual: Pierre Trudel, professeur, Université de Montréal

• Mise en place nécessaire d’un cadre législatif pour les environnements en ligne
• L’article 8 de l’article 9.1, introduirait une exclusion inutile et dangereuse vient priver le CRTC d’exiger ou régir l’utilisation d’algorithmes en retranchant la capacité d’imposer des recours informatifs. Vient paralyser l’action du régulateur
• S’assurer que la prise d’ordonnance du CRTC soit assujetti a des audiences publiques (transparence)

Internet Society Canada Chapter: Timothy Denton, Chairman

• The language of Bill C-11 defined the term broadcasting to include any moving images or sounds
• It has defined the CRTC's regulatory authority for anything that can generate revenue directly or indirectly

Questions

John Nater (CPC)

• How do you develop your content? Where are your creator influences come from?
  • Roy: I take my Qs from the platform itself. There are trends.
• Can you expand on how you earn direct and indirect revenue?
  • I have brands that reach out to me. I try to be authentic. They pay me based on the views I get.

Anthony Housefather (PLC)

• The application to the broadcasting act to online streaming services, you believe it’s unconstitutional. Can you refer me to the case law?
  • Palmer: We are talking about federal regulations that relate to broadcasting back to 1982. At that time, section 92.10 of the Constitution Act was raised. Radio transmission goes beyond borders.
• Êtes-vous d’accord que c’est inconstitutionnel?
  • Trudel : Ce le serait si cela était de juridiction provinciale. Il faut s’attendre à ce que l’état intervienne.
• Is your feeling that C-11 is also leading to totalitarians state similar to communist?
  • Denton: I reject the premises of the question.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• J’aimerais vous entendre sur les parallèles entre la loi sur la radiodiffusion et la loi actuelle.
  • Trudel : Souci de faire en sorte que les entreprises qui profitent de l’audience canadienne contribuent au financement de la production d’émissions canadiennes.
• Nous devons nous adapter aux nouveaux moyens d’activités de radiodiffusion.
• Que pensez-vous du retour de l’article 4.2. Trouvez-vous que c’est maladroit?
  • Je ne partage pas les préoccupations. Le CRTC a déjà toute la latitude.

Peter Julian (NPD)

• Voyez-vous un espace pour l’améliorer le projet de loi?
  • Trudel : Je retrancherais l’interdiction faite au CRTC de règlement des algorithmes. L’alinéat 8 de l’article 9.1. Ajouter dans l’obligation de tenir des audiences publiques du CRTC, cela devrait être conditionnelle à la tenue d’audience publique.
• Pensez-vous que tous devraient avoir les mêmes obligations pour l’utilisation de talents canadiens.
  • L’article 3 tel que modifié prévoit déjà l’obligation de faire appel à des ressources canadiennes. Nous aurions pu exiger que les entreprises étrangères fassent appel à des ressources canadiennes.
• Est-ce inquiétant que les compagnies aient des pouvoirs si grands qui peuvent exclure des groupes ou communautés?
  • C’est inquiétant. Cela devrait être exercé en fonction de la loi.

Kevin Waugh (CPC)

• I don’t share the enthusiasm for the CRTC. CRTC is well over their head.
  • Palmer: I think their processes is slowing their credit.
• What recommendation would you make to have some confidence on the CRTC? Can we have some trust in the CRTC?

Chris Bittle (PLC)

• Will this bill allow the CRTC to implement a 30% digital tax on digital creators?
  • Trudel : Le CRTC n’a pas le pouvoir d’imposer des taxes. Le projet de loi permet que les entreprises qui tirent des revenus les réinvestissent dans la création.
• You mentioned Article 4.2. There are a lot of concerns. It is interpreted as an exception to the exception. Could you tell us how this is a misinterpretation of the bill?
  • C’est un article qui vient prévoir que les services qui n’ont pas d’incidences n’ont pas à être réglementé.
• Could you tell us how platforms like YouTube set the rules in an unregulated space?
  • C’est un espace réglementé par des entreprises dominantes. Est-ce que nous aimons mieux être règlementé pas YouTube ou par un processus démocratique.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Parlez-nous de l’approche européenne.
  • Trudel : La Loi sur la radiodiffusion canadienne est pionnière. Il faut garantir la transparence et l’équité des processus des algorithmes.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• How do you feel about the exclusions?
  • They own the platform.

Rachael Thomas (CPC)

• Can you expand on how you achieve success within a new platform?
  • Roy: I found a space on user generator content that is not regulated. It’s the first time I’m able to make a living from user generated content.
• Would you say that they’ve been opportunity for you as a visible minority with digital platform?
  • Yes and it’s so exciting. Tiktok is very supportive.
• Can you comment on Canadian content and discoverability? What will this do to you?
  • It will cut my vues by 30%. Affects my ability to get in front of people.

Tim Louis (PLC)

• Why is it important that we study under C-11 the regulatory obligations?
  • Trudel : C’est une question des algorithmes. C’est de cette façon que les paroles sont réglementées dans les grandes plateformes.
• Can you talk about the fears regarding the regulation that does not apply to platforms but on the content?
  • La réglementation s’applique aux plateformes. Le CRTC n’intervient pas sur le contenu. Il ne s’agit pas de règlementer les individus.

Rachael Thomas (CPC)

• Can you talk about how this bill is quite regressive?
  • Denton: We have something that appears to be on broadcasting, but it has escaped any previous technological boundaries.

Chris Bittle (PLC)

• Would you like to respond to Mr. Denton comments?
  • Trudel : Le défi c’est d’adapter les réglementations que tous les pays du monde ont trouvées nécessaires de mettre en place pour que chacun puisse accéder à la parole. Le projet de loi C-11 devra amener le CRTC à fonctionner de façon différente. Nécessité d’assurer un fonctionnement équitable.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Vous dites que vous seriez contente de pouvoir profiter d’un soutien financier. Vous dites ne pas vous reconnaitre. Pensez-vous qu’une réglementation bien adaptée profiterait aux créateurs de contenus numérique comme vous?
  • Roy: You have to make good content that’s interesting for people to watch. If I’m being regulated that will restrict me.

Peter Julian (NPD)

• Are there areas where you think that C-11 can be improve?
  • Roy: I should be explicitly protected in the legislation.

Committee Work

Deadline for consideration of amendments:

• CPC: Not ready to set a deadline for submission of amendments, would like to wait until next week as a final meeting with witnesses should be held Monday June 6.
• LPC: Proposes Friday June 3rd 4:00 pm for submission of amendments.
• BQ: Agreed with Friday, June 3rd 4:00 pm.
• NDP: Also agree.
• No decision has been made.

The CPC did everything within their power to kill time and avoid voting on the deadline. They are asking for more witnesses, more time, and to ensure that the charter is respected by the CRTC.

• John Nater (CPC): Criticizes the fact that Minister Rodriguez has still not appeared on the Main Estimates.

Summary Panel 2

As an individual: Justin Tomchuk, Producer

• Produce user generated content regarding Canadian made products
• They don’t qualify for government funding
• Bill C-11 might destroy their visibility internationally
• Recommendation of algorithm will result in lower audience retention and damage visibility
• Section 4.2.a needs to be removed from bill, or whole bill should be scraped entirely

Alliance des producteurs francophones du Canada : Carol Ann Pilon, Executive Director

• Ambiguïté dans la terminologie de « minorité francophone », besoin d’une nouvelle définition
• Rétablir la définition « émission de langue originale française »
• Appui amendements proposé par AQPM et ACPM

Canadian Association of Broadcasters: Kevin Desjardins, President

• Act is fundamental to our industry; support Bill C-11
• 3 focused amendments:
  • Section 3
  • Section 5 – no two-tier system
  • Section 11 – resolve inequity of Part II fees

The Wyatt Sharpe Show: Wyatt Sharpe, Host

• Non-partisan journalist

Questions

John Nater (CPC)

• How old were you when you started your journalism career?
  • Wyatt: January 2021
• How did your enterprise grow?
  • Wyatt: YouTube is my main tool and social media channels like Twitter, and word of mouth.
• Challenges you may have faced over the last couple years regarding breaking through the journalism world?
  • Wyatt: My age is my biggest challenge but still get taken seriously.
• How important is it for you to have the global reach? How did the digital platforms help you meet the global demand/market?
  • Tomchuk: extremely important. Much of our merch sales are in the States and the EU, so we rely on our global audience.
• Would you support eliminating the clause?
  • Tomchuk: Yes
• Part II license fees. What is the type of financial affect it would have on your membership if we took those off?
  • Desjardins: that money would be reinvested in those organisations themselves

Tim Louis (LPC)

• Size and scope of your organization? How much content are you making or production funds to Canada?
  • Desjardins: 2 billion per year but doesn’t include news.
• How does entertainment help support the news ecosystem?
  • Desjardins: big challenges for advertising dollars and programming rights. Internal productions are generally the newsrooms within the broadcasting companies themselves.
• Tell me about your vision about what Canadian broadcasting is going to be.
  • Desjardins: we can see a future where we are sharing in some way the broadcasting system with other players. Need fair and equitable rules.
• You don’t mind sharing the system, but you want to share the responsibility.
  • Desjardins: yes
• We’ve heard that the organisations are here to protect their jobs. What do you think?

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Impacts que le secteur de la radiodiffusion traditionnelle subit par le secteur depuis l’arrivée des géants numériques?
  • Desjardins : les marchés de publicités ont été le plus affecté. Dévalué la valeur de la publicité et a monté le prix pour les droits de programmation.
• Plus de difficulté à vendre la publicité à moindre couts donc moins de revenu et difficulté de fourniture de nouvelles régionales?
  • Desjardins : oui. Les dépenses sur les nouvelles n’ont pas agrandi mais pas un grand déclin.
• Proposé d’amendement à 3.1.f. Comment est-ce qu’on va concilier votre demande et celle des industries culturelles? Est-ce que vous seriez satisfait avec un tel amendement?
  • Desjardins : il faut avoir de l’équité et des règles juste pour les services canadiens et étrangères.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• 10 years of unregulated foreign players vs employment in the broadcasting industry.
  • Desjardins: can follow up with the committee for specific numbers. It’ not growing.
• If C-11 was not adopted, what do you see the impacts of continued having unregulated foreign companies?
  • Desjardins: profound impact on the sector
• Matter of putting in place a levelled playing field. Regarding section 3.1.f, is it important to include obligations around Canadian employment?
  • Desjardins: Yes. The point is to make sure we have the same rules and there is a reason for these foreign streamers and broadcasters to work with Canadians.
• Do you feel that’s appropriated as an amendment as well? Obligation for the broadcasting industries vs online streaming companies
  • Desjardins: ownership restrictions, rules need to be adjusted

Kevin Waugh (CPC)

• What do you think of Wyatt Sharpe journalism?
  • Desjardins: great deal of respect for him
• How many followers and subscribers do you have in total?
  • Wyatt: YouTube 3.38k, Twitter 10k, Instagram 500
• Spending on productions.
  • Desjardins: will send list of primetime shows to the committee

Rachael Thomas (CPC)

• Motion: Asks Minister of Justice to provide revised charter of statements and invite the ministers of Justice and Canadian Heritage to appear before the committee as soon as possible to discuss the revised charter of statements.

(In order for the motion to be on the floor)

(First panel ends)

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Point of order: CRTC should be able to clarify their comments and it would be inappropriate to cut off CRTC’s appearance. Asks consideration to postpone motion.

Rachael Thomas (CPC)

• We have every intention to table the motion.

Peter Julian (NCP)

• Can the CRTC testify and then table the motion? We need to hear from the CRTC.

Rachael Thomas (CPC)

• I have moved a motion and I wish to speak to it.
• Asks Minister of Justice to provide revised charter of statements and invite the ministers of Justice and Canadian Heritage to appear before the committee as soon as possible to discuss the revised charter of statements. The current charter seems to be contradicted by the CRTC’s past statements made in their last appearance before this committee.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• I move to adjourn the debate.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Je propose une motion pour ajournée le débat.

(Debate adjourned)

Summary Panel 3

Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission: Ian Scott, Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer; Scott Hutton, Chief of Consumer, Research and Communications; Sheehan Carter, Director General, Strategic Policy; and Rachelle Frenette, General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director

Ian Scott

• Bill C-11 clarifie les compétences du CRTC pour traiter les services de diffusion en ligne, et permet une approche plus souple de réglementation
• The CRTC currently has to effective No effective dissuasive regulatory tools

Kevin Waugh (CPC)

• Could I confirm that streaming is not currently subject to regulation?
  • We need to find a regulatory framework that treats all those platforms engaged in broadcasting equitably.
• Could you define broadcasting?
  • It is defined in the act as the transmission of programs.
• Did anyone from the Minister’s Office speak with you following the meeting on May 24?
  • No.
• Who is qualified for your job?
  • Someone who demonstrates leadership and the ability to create consensus, the ability to manage change.
  • Expert staff and 8 other commissioners will be involved in future decisions.

Chris Bittle (PLC)

• What do you mean by the term “regulate” in the context of regulating user-generated content?
  • Scott: The act is clear; users are not regulated.
  • Frenette: user-uploaded content can be subject to regulation within a narrow framework
• Has the CRTC ever regulated user-uploaded content?
  • Frenette: No. We will not censor “unacceptable” online content.
• Could you describe the elements of the bill that scope and constrain the CRTC’s powers?
  • Scott: We regulate enterprises, and the regulatory objectives will remain the same.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Vous avez suivi les témoignages des Youtubeurs : est-ce que le CRTC pourrait réglementer les activités d’une utilisatrice tel que le skateboarder qui a témoigné?
  • Frenette : Les plateformes seront règlementées, pas les utilisateurs. D’ailleurs le Conseil n’a pas le pouvoir de réglementer les algorithmes.
• Est-ce que le CRTC devrait avoir recours aux algorithmes pour la vérification?
  • Hutton : L’objectif du Conseil est de s’assurer que les objectifs sont atteints, non de changer les algorithmes.
• Qu’est-ce que vous pensez au sujet du bilinguisme du Président du Conseil?
  • Scott : Les attentes pour le Président sont de participer à tous les réunions bilingues dans les deux langues.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• In your testimony on May 18, we heard that the CRTC have never interfered with individual content, and that the Broadcasting Act currently provides such regulatory powers over user-uploaded content. What has changed with Bill C-11?
  • Scott: We have used an exemption provision, now there is a specific provision to circumscribe the powers of the CRTC relative to user-uploaded content.
• Are you saying that C-11 is more restrictive of CRTC’s powers than the Broadcasting Act?
  • Yes.
• The CRTC has been criticized as very slow. How would you respond to this?
  • This is necessary for abiding by administrative law and fairness. We also issue about 400 decisions and orders per year, and focus has been on processes that take longer.

John Nater (CPC)

• Have you received a policy directive for this legislation? Do you anticipate this directive to include discoverability?
  • Scott: We have not received policy direction.
• How would you implement discoverability for a streamer?
  • We are focused on outcomes, so that Canadians can identify Canadian content as already enabled by streaming platforms.
• Does the CRTC have the ability to regulate outcomes?
  • We have the ability to identify desired outcomes, and we hope to incentivize positive behaviour.

Michael Coteau (LPC)

• What do you make of the Charter statement?
  • Frenette: The Department of Justice considered these provisions when they deemed C-11 to be Charter compliant.
• What does it mean for C-11 to be technologically neutral and platform agnostic?
  • Frenette: Our interest is in the behaviour and actions of the platforms themselves.

Lisa Hepfner (LPC)

• Can you address the concern that Canadians will be directed towards Canadian content rather than the content they truly want to watch?
  • Scott: There is a plethora of content available to Canadians. Discoverability simply means that we want Canadian stories to be available.
• Are you going to tell the platforms how to make Canadian content discoverable?
  • No, that’s not how we do it. It’s about outcomes; we might encourage Netflix to do what they already do even better.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Je reviens aux inquiétudes des Youtubeurs. Est-ce que les créateurs de contenu numérique sont ceux qu’on voudrait présenter davantage en tant que contenu canadien?
  • Hutton : Selon les directives de la loi, on voudrait prioriser ces gens-là.
• Y-a-t’il moyen pour les citoyens de contester une décision du CRTC?
  • Le CRTC est un tribunal administratif, il y a plusieurs avenues à la disposition des partis insatisfaits des décisions du Conseil.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• How would the CRTC handle cases of exclusion and discrimination currently occurring with online streaming companies?
  • Scott: Everything we do will be subject to public proceedings.
  • We can deal with arbitration for licensees, but the act does not allow this for online content providers.
• Turning Red has not been defined as Canadian content.
  • Scott: Yes, we need to help define Canadian content more broadly.

Second Panel

Québecor Média inc.: Pierre Karl Péladeau, President and Chief Executive Officer; and Peggy Tabet, Vice-President, Regulatory and Environmental Affairs

• Globalisation et technologisation ont permis de détourner la réglementation et l’octroi des licences
• Québecor fait face à une concurrence inéquitable avec les géants du web étrangers comme Disney+ et Netflix
• C-11 ne contient plus le principe d’équité entre les différents joueurs de l’industrie, alors que ce principe était présent dans le projet de loi précédent

As an individual: Sara Bannerman, Canada Research Chair in Communication Policy and Governance and Associate Professor, McMaster University

• Regarding discoverability and algorithmic bias, platforms serve their business interest, and there are 3 bias types of concern:
  • Selecting content for carriage by predicting how many viewers will be attracted
  • Recommendations display popularity bias and concentrate viewing on a small catalogue of popular content
  • Users’ own biases can be amplified
• CRTC intervention raises difficult problems that it may not be able to resolve.
• There are legitimate concerns about promoting some forms of content over other forms.
• The Commission could play a role in bringing these concerns to light, and the CRTC’s most useful role may be presenting data for public view; Bill C-11 will allow for closer examination of digital powers.
• The General Powers Information and Provision section of the bill could include “collection and provision”.
• Section 25.3 could allow companies to prevent disclosure of information.
• Canadian broadcasting system has often served dominant groups, we need to ensure they are open to debate and change through public transparency and data.

As an individual: Gordon Sinclair

• The Tragically Hip were initially beneficiaries of CanCon, which helped us with early promotion and visibility.
• Songwriters are our best cultural ambassadors. How can we help our next generation of poets and musicians find their voices? Where will our next Joni Mitchell come from if we don’t help our young artists?
• Modern music business model, based on streaming, is financially unsustainable; regulations around streaming must adapt to the digital age.

International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees: John Morgan Lewis, International Vice-President and Director of Canadian Affairs

• Current system wrongly relies on a few mandatory conditions, such as IP ownership or control, and a 10-point cultural scoring system for Canadian films.
• We need a fairer system to determine Canadian content; 10-point system must be expanded to consider more factors.

Motion Picture Association-Canada: Wendy Noss, présidente

• Global studios (including Disney, Netflix, NBCUniversal, Paramount Global, Sony Pictures, and Warner Bros Discovery) employ 200,000 talented Canadian workers.
• We account for 15% of the financing of all Canadian content last year.
• Amendments concerning carriage content must be limited to online undertakings that offer the programming services of others.
• Government must explicitly consider the full range of policy objectives in establishing this new approach to defining Canadian content.
• We need clarity in definitions around streaming services.
• We support the modernisation of this act, leaning into modern and flexible policy for global players.

Netflix : Stéphane Cardin, Director, Public Policy

• Canada remains one of our top global production countries.
• Since 2017, we have invested more than $3.5 billion in Canada for films and series launched on Netflix.
• Nous estimons la démarche judicieuse de ce projet de loi; cependant, nous craignons que des les exigences rigides actuelles en matière de diffusion soient transposées sur les services de streaming en ligne.

YouTube: Jeanette Patell, Head of Canada Government Affairs and Public Policy

• YouTube is a level playing field on a world stage for Canadian creators, who depend on international viewers for over 90% of their watch time.
• Our concern is that Bill C-11 does not include effective guardrails on the powers given to the CRTC, or the powers to which this content applies.
• Creators boosted as Cancon in Canada could be demoted in search results around the world.
• Recommend narrowing language of 4.2 to only capture full-length commercial music.
• Strengthen 9.1 to prevent regulatory impacts to recommendation algorithms.
• Narrowly apply broadcasting regulations to differentiate between business models.

Questions

John Nater (CPC)

• Would the Umbrella Academy qualify as Canadian content?
  • Cardin: No. Projects that we own or fully finance are not recognized as Canadian according to some certification criteria.
• Much of C-11’s impact will be defined by its policy directive; what are your thoughts on this approach?
  • Patell: The Minister and the creator community seem aligned in their regulatory intent, so it’s not clear to me why we would give expansive discretion to the CRTC in the text of the law, on the premise that user-generated content will not be regulated.
• What is it that is unique about new technology and new platforms that allows Canadian content to be globally celebrated?
  • Patell: Niche content will not break through mass media can find an audience on the global stage.

Tim Louis (LPC)

• Can you comment on the present-day challenge of song writing as a career?
  • Sinclair: It costs money to record and distribute a song, which is unsustainable for production on all levels without album sales.
  • We need compensation assistance from this bill.
• Foreign streaming services currently have no obligation to promote Canadian creators. Mid-level artists are suffering. Can you elaborate on the importance of showcasing Canadian artists at all levels?
  • Sinclair: The most important thing is allowing younger artists the opportunity that I had under the old system.
  • The foundation of our national heritage needs to expand from coast to coast to coast.
  • We must invest in a system that allows artists to take their show on the road, to places where artists traditionally don’t play.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Le CRTC ne voudrait pas influencer les algorithmes mais établir des objectifs et chercher des améliorations en collaboration.
  • Patell: We need to clarify the scope of the content to which it applies.
  • Opportunity to clarify language around algorithmic protections.
  • Section 4.2 was described to us as a set of considerations, yet the CRTC is not bound to this, allowing their broad power over interface between the platform and the user.
• Les frais de la Partie 2, sont-ils adéquats?
  • Péladeau : Cela fait partie d’un tout avec C-18. Les revenus publicitaires constituent la seule source de revenu pour les distributeurs.
• On peut parler du mandat de Radio-Canada?
  • Péladeau : Je souligne qu’il est absent du projet de loi.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• What advice would you give regarding re-evaluation of cultural content?
  • Lewis: Definition of Canadian content overemphasizes the director, the screenwriter, and the actor.
  • The goal is to protect and enhance creative Canadian culture, voices, and stories.
  • This industry is changing by the month and the legislation needs to remain flexible.
• Many more Canadian artists were able to succeed after Canadian content was established. Do you foresee similar success with C-11?
  • That would be my hope, or we risk a pattern such as seen in the 1970s where successful artists moved south.
• Is algorithmic transparency generally an issue?
  • Bannerman: Yes, and other solutions could include an Algorithmic Transparency Act.

Committee Work

The study of Bill C-11 is expected to continue tomorrow. A two-hour meeting is scheduled.

Committee meeting on June 1, 2022

Report Prepared By

Parliamentary Affairs Team, Parliamentary and Cabinet Affairs
Heritage Canada

Subject of the meeting

Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts

Members in Attendance

• Hedy Fry (LPC) Chair
• Martin Champoux (BQ)
• Lisa Hepfner (LPC)
• Anthony Housefather (LPC)
• Chris Bittle (LPC)
• Peter Julian (NDP)
• Tim Uppal (CPC)
• Tim Louis (LPC)
• John Nater (CPC)
• Rachael Thomas (CPC)
• Kevin Waugh (CPC)

Witnesses

15 h 30 to 17 h 30

As an individual

• J.J. McCullough

Association québécoise de la production médiatique

• Hélène Messier, President and Chief Executive Officer

BCE Inc.

• Jonathan Daniels, Vice-President, Regulatory Law
• Karine Moses, Vice-Chair Québec and Senior Vice-President, Content Development & News

Black Screen Office

• Joan Jenkinson, Executive Director

Canadian Media Producers Association

• Reynolds Mastin, President and Chief Executive Officer
• Catherine Winder, Chief Executive Officer, Wind Sun Sky Entertainment Inc.

FRIENDS

• Marla Boltman, Executive Director

Public Interest Advocacy Centre

• John Lawford, Executive Director and General Counsel

Summary

As an individual: J.J. McCullough

• I’m here to represent the professional YouTuber community.
• Section 4.2 describes how government is interested in regulating user-generated content.
• It is impossible to regulate platforms without regulating content.
• Section 9 is alarming because it allows the CRTC to dictate the amount of content to broadcast in each genre.

Association québécoise de la production médiatique : Hélène Messier, President and Chief Executive Officer

• Je souligne l’importance d’adopter sans délai C-11, ce qui donne au CRTC les outils nécessaires pour gérer les services de diffusion.
• Il est essentiel que le projet de loi permette au CRTC de réglementer également les entreprises qui fournissent des services internet.

BCE inc.: Jonathan Daniels, Vice-President, Regulatory Law and Karine Moses, Vice-Chair Québec and Senior Vice-President, Content Development & News

• Moses : Bell est le plus grand diffuseur au Canada, et nous appuyons ce projet de loi.
• C-11 ne reconnait pas correctement la part centrale des diffuseurs radio-canadiens dans notre propre système de distribution.
• C-11 n’encourage pas actuellement les diffuseurs étrangers à collaborer avec les diffuseurs canadiens.
• Major foreign studios are now using their own streaming platforms to reach Canadians directly, and refuse to sell us their content, which puts Canadian broadcasters at risk.
• We are proposing two important amendments to Sections 3 and 5 of the bill.

Black Screen Office: Joan Jenkinson, Executive Director

• Canadians of all backgrounds have not had access to programming that authentically represents the diversity of this country.
• Wherever the word “racialized” is used, we request that this be replaced with “black and racialized”.
• Foreign or US content does not reflect the black Canadian experience; Canadians should have access to stories of all lengths and formats that reflect these unique experiences.

Canadian Media Producers Association: Reynolds Mastin, President and Chief Executive Officer and Catherine Winder, Chief Executive Officer, Wind Sun Sky Entertainment Inc.

• The CMPA supports the passage of Bill C-11.
• We are proposing 3 amendments to the bill:
  • Ownership rules around Canadian IP should assess to what extent Canadian producers own the full intellectual property of program.
  • Require fair negotiations between buyers and sellers of content; adopt a Terms of Trade amendment such as found in UK legislation
  • Close loophole that excludes telecom service providers from application of the act, even though they play ever greater role in broadcasting system. CRTC should be able to determine whether and how telecoms services participate in broadcasting content.

FRIENDS: Marla Boltman, Executive Director

• This bill does not address CBC’s mandate, which should require singular attention.
• Ownership and control issues: foreign tech giants should not be able to make decisions about Canadian content.
• Proposed amendment to Section 11.1(1) dealing with expenditure requirements would ensure that cuts do not affect local TV broadcasting.

Public Interest Advocacy Centre: John Lawford, Executive Director and General Counsel

• Extending CanCon financial support requirements to online streaming services is generally supported by Canadians.
• We support an amendment exempting small online undertakings (below a certain revenue threshold) from financial and other conditions (although not registration requirements).
• Digital first creators are concerned that discoverability tools will backfire.
• “Static discoverability” could be satisfied by unproblematic banner ads.
• “Dynamic discoverability” requires AI prediction tools to dynamically suggest links or insert CanCon into autoplay feeds.
• Amend Section 3.1(r) to satisfy discoverability requirement with only static discoverability tools.

Questions

Kevin Waugh (CPC)

• What do you pay today for American programming that is played on your CTV stations across Canada?
  • Daniels: We pay a lot of money for American programming; we have regulatory requirements to put this into Canadian content and we are able to monetize this collaboration.
• Can we see any Canadian productions on the prime time 7-10pm programming?
  • Moses: Yes, we are invested in Canadian content.
• Have you invested in Crave, and how much?
  • Moses: We have many Canadian shows on Crave, including more than 6,000 hours of French-Canadian content.

Michael Coteau (LPC)

• Is it the government’s place to be encouraging diversity of voices in broadcast content?
  • Jenkinson: We think that traditionally underrepresented creators are finding audiences on YouTube, but this should not be the only source for diverse content.
• Conservative colleagues have suggested that we leave this diversity to algorithms. What has been the historical experience of black Canadians in working with broadcasting giants?
  • There has been very little relevant content on traditional platforms. In the history of Canadian TV, there have only been 4 TV drama series (prior to 2020) made for and about black communities.
  • We want to ensure consumer choice, which requires access for bigger budgets to produce dramas and feature films and documentaries.
• Do you believe that the spirit of this bill is beneficiary for Canadians in general?
  • Yes, and particularly for under-represented Canadians, because equity and inclusion are at the heart of this bill.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Quelles sont vos impressions sur l’état de ce projet de loi?
  • Messier : Ce qui m’a le plus frappé, c’est l’incompréhension de plusieurs sur le contenu canadien, et un manque de considération pour la propriété intellectuelle des producteurs indépendants.
• Vous parlez des investissements et des contributions des compagnies américaines. Quels sont les outils que l’on pourrait utiliser pour assurer que la production est profitable, pour non seulement les grandes entreprises américaines?
  • On doit garder la notion d’engager le plus possible les ressources créatives canadiens, et de mieux définir le contenu canadien.
• Vous proposez d’inclure les services téléphoniques et internet dans l’envergure du projet de loi.
  • Tout ceux qui profitent du système doivent y participer.
  • On devrait élargir l’assiette des contributeurs (à partir de 5% de leur revenu), sans pénaliser les consommateurs
• L’article 3.1(f) – quel importance d’accorder cet article pour les producteurs?
  • C’est un régime à deux vitesses qui devrait comprendre de pareilles exigences des producteurs canadiens et étrangers.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Quelle est l’importance des deux amendements que vous proposez?
  • Messier : J’insiste sur les ententes commerciales et les pouvoirs de négociation des producteurs traditionnels, qui sont souvent obligés de céder leur droits et leurs revenus.
• Why is intellectual property so important for independent producers?
  • Winder: Terms of trade help to rebalance negotiating field, allowing Canadian companies to own and invest in their own content.
  • Producers have no choice but to leave the country to get certain types of content (ie. Children’s content).
• We’ve heard testimony about OUTtv. In your opinion, are black and racialized Canadians excluded from online platforms in a similar way?
  • Jenkinson: We don’t believe they will be excluded from online platforms in the same way. However, we want to ensure there is higher budget funding in the system for black content creators.
  • We should not rely solely on online platforms and user-generated content to provide diversity.

Rachael Thomas (CPC)

• Most stakeholders would benefit financially if this bill were passed, whereas digital creators have much to lose. Do you agree with this observation?
  • McCullough: I do not want the content of successful, independent media creators to be subject to this old world of burdensome regulation.
  • We get our money from advertisers, based on appeal to a global audience. This is how media works in the 21st century.
• What will Bill C-11 do to content creators’ ability to access a global audience?
  • The agenda that I hear articulated is to create mandates for content creators to create more Canadian content for Canadian consumption.
  • This government defined set of identifiers has only the best interests of Canadians in mind, whereas my content and consumer base targets a global audience. We must be sensitive to the idea that we live in a globalized world.
  • I am concerned that this bill will shrink the influence of Canadian content creators globally.

Chris Bittle (LPC)

• Could you speak to the presence of traditional artists on digital platforms?
  • Mastin: Canadian producers have always been globally focused. The traditional Canadian media industry has never been exclusively Canadian-focused.
• We heard last week from Jerome Payette that streaming platforms are not neutral; they choose winners and losers. Could you speak to this?
  • The coalition has deep expertise, we take guidance from them.
• How do we ensure that we are not a rip-it-and-ship-it Canadian economy?
  • Recently, we had to give up all our creative control recently to realize a production. Our challenge is that our creative rights are not recognized. Most producers do not have the resources to push back, and we have little to no leverage.

Martin Champoux (BQ)

• Un récent sondage a identifié que 80% des répondants trouvaient important que l’État protège la culture québécoise. Le CRTC impose des quotas sur le contenu québécois et francophone. Ces mesures seraient-elles efficaces et bénéfiques si appliquées aux plateformes de diffusion en ligne?
  • Moses : On veut offrir aux canadiens le contenu qu’ils veulent consommer. La diversité et la découvrabilité de talents devraient s’effectuer sur toutes les plateformes.

Peter Julian (NDP)

• Is FRIENDS is pushing to adopt C-11 because we are essentially siphoning money out of the country?
  • Boltman: Bill C-11 matters to us because American content has an incredible influence over our culture, and we need to protect our ability to promote and protect Canadian content, which has always required government support.
  • Foreign contributions will level the playing field.

Rachael Thomas (CPC)

• Do you care to elaborate on your column in the Washington Post about government overreach?
  • McCullough: This rhetoric concerning cultural sovereignty frightens some people and sounds authoritarian.
  • YouTubers do not conceive of content in this way. We do not need to protect our culture from foreign domination through the paternalistic hand of the government.
• What impact will this bill have on YouTube content creators?
  • If the CRTC comes up with their own metrics, this creates another dimension of concern for YouTubers who must consider whether their videos are being suppressed by YouTube, or because of the CRTC’s definition of Canadian content?

Anthony Housefather (LPC)

• We have not much discussed the protection of French-Canadian content in Canada. You consider bilingualism to be a threat to Canadian democracy. Do you believe that it is fair in Bill C-11 to protect French content in all forms?
  • McCullough: I do not believe it is appropriate for government to pass laws or mandates to impose French content on YouTube users; the media should be a consumer-led industry dictated by a free market.
• Why do you believe that this bill is about ideologically motivated censorship?
  • Wouldn’t you find it problematic if the Chinese wanted to protect their cultural sovereignty in a similar way?

Committee work

A motion was made regarding a possible deadline for submission of amendments on Friday, June 3 at 4:00 pm EDT. No consensus was reached and the committee will take up the discussion of the deadline in its future work.

To come

It is expected that the study of Bill C-11 will continue tomorrow. A 3 hour meeting is scheduled including the appearance of Minister Rodriguez accompanied by PCH officials.