Indigenous Perspectives: Stories from Indigenous Public Servants Episode 9 – Priorities, pt. 1

The ESDC Indigenous Perspectives podcasts explore being Indigenous in the Public Service, what reconciliation is for individuals, and what it can be for Canada. In their own words, public servants give voice to diverse experiences - and struggles - around what it means to be Indigenous.

Duration: 34:08 minutes

Transcript

(soundbyte: Janice Edgar)

"We're always coming from a mindset of where we know best and we have an answer, and we'll consult on it, but it’s what we come up with. And so to me, until we can actually say 'We don't know what this answer is. What do you think?' and talk together to build something... I don't know if that's even do-able. I mean, obviously it's a very scary thing."

(music: "Hoka" – Boogey The Beat)

Indigenous Perspectives. Stories from Indigenous public servants.

Tansi.

This is Indigenous Perspectives, a program where we hope to explore the experiences and perspectives of Indigenous public servants, what reconciliation means to them, and what it can be for Canada.

(music: “Side Step” – Boogey The Beat)

In 2012, four women – Nina Wilson, Sheelah McLean, Sylvia McAdam and Jessica Gordon – hosted series of series of teach-ins throughout Saskatchewan. And they sparked something, a reaction which erupted into a groundswell movement from the grassroots.

These four women – three from First Nations and one non-Indigenous ally – called upon all people to join them in a peaceful revolution toward reconciliation: a call to honour Indigenous sovereignty, to protect the land and the water, and to put an end to economic and social inequality.

And that call was heard across North America, and eventually, the world.

Idle No More quickly became one of the largest Indigenous mass movements in Canadian history – inspiring thousands of people to participate in teach-ins, rallies, and protests across Turtle Island and beyond, and changing our social and political landscape in the process. But it began small… with just a handful of individuals who saw the persisting problems in their society and who sought change.

Who wakes up in the morning and thinks, “Today, my friends and I will be the start of a new movement in our country's history. Today, we'll host a talk which will spread from city to province to country to continent, until the entire world is aware that even in peaceful times, there is unrest here. Even in this land of prosperity, there is suffering.”

But perhaps we should, every morning, confront ourselves not only with the power we have at hand to contribute to the betterment of our society, but our obligation to do so.

If everyone in this country woke up every morning with a mission to think beyond themselves, and devote whatever time or resources or skills they had to ensuring that every Canadian had access to the necessitates of life – clean drinking water, affordable food and housing, a good education – this really would be the best country on Earth to live in, and we wouldn't need a news story or a report to tell us so.

So do something. It's in you.

To care about others, to be concerned when people are suffering, to want everyone to be safe and well, to understand that the prosperity of others does not come at the expense of prosperity to ourselves – seems quintessentially Canadian to me.

And now, in their own words, the thoughts and feelings of some of Canada's own public servants about their ideas for the way forward on reconciliation.

(flute: Greg Reiter)

Todd:

Do you have a personal wish list? If you were in charge, if you could make sweeping changes to the country or identify particular priorities, what would be your top three wish list of things that you would change?

Tim L:

Well, I think every school in Canada at the grade 6 or 8 level should have the blanket exercise as part of the curriculum. In some school districts and some provinces that is the case right now. But that is such a powerful tool to become more aware of the true history of the relationship between the European and the Indigenous nations in this country. And to show the impact of the actions of Europeans on the Indigenous populations. And what it did to the land and the way of life – that was very sophisticated prior to contact. And was very sharing and peaceful in the initial one to two hundred years. And it just got sidetracked by greed basically – the fur trade greed, political power greed of European nations that came to this country and formed governments and things like that. So that's the first thing. I would like to see every school have the blanket exercise as part of their curriculum to really get that true understanding what happened at a very young age in the communities.

Fannie:

We're looking at representation. We're looking at having the right amount of people in the right number of positions. And we're looking to support through mentoring and coaching in a variety of ways. I think that success is really looking at true inclusion and not just the right amount of numbers. Looking at how their perspective adds value to our policies, toward decision making, to our innovation, just overall mental health and wellness as well. I think exploring how to properly understand each other, our differences, and how to make room at the table for all of them and make it safe and make it more than just an apology but follow through with some clear actions. I think that would mean the biggest difference for all.

Daniel:

I can't describe how important was for me to come into government and not just have a colleague who is Indigenous but to be working with two senior Ph.D. Indigenous researchers, of Research who is Indigenous. A number of other colleagues in the research group and elsewhere who are Indigenous. And, in addition to that, connections to Indigenous academics who had a long history because of the Royal Commission of working with government on issues of policy change, around Indigenous issues, self-government, well-being, and so on. I was ridiculously privileged to have access to so many Indigenous mentors in my career, early on. My god! Now that I'm thinking about it it's actually kind of crazy. It would be very difficult to replicate. It would be impossible to replicate that particular type of network. But I think people coming in today really need to find ways to bridge those gaps, bridge those divides, and build those relationships and have them built in a way that is that is durable. That it's not just transactional, not just contract-based, but actually have long term working relationships. Because that's how those conversations will become a little bit less fractious, a little bit less uncomfortable, and we can focus on working on the uncomfortable issues.

Janice:

I remember when I became a Free Agent, sitting down with Neil [Bouwer] and he said, 'Well, how do we fix this problem? What do we do to address reconciliation? How, from a policy perspective, what's the answer?' And I said, we can't have the answer because it has to be found and developed in partnership with Indigenous peoples. We can't go and say, here's the policy shift we're going to make because that's what we always do. You know we say, OK, we're going to do this now and then we go and consult. We never go with a blank page. It's too risky, but maybe that's what we need to do. We're always coming from a mindset of where we know best and we have an answer. And we'll consult on it. But it's what we come up with. And so, until we can actually say: “We don't know what the answer is. What do you think?” and talk together to build something. I don't know if that's even doable. I mean obviously it's a very scary thing. But the more I look at where we are and look at where we've been and learn about the things of the past and read different perspectives, I think we really need to be open to adopting different perspectives and views and and admitting we don't know what we don't know. And in a government, you don't see that very often in the higher levels. You don't see senior management admitting that. It's considered a weakness. You know how could you possibly be a DM or an ADM or a DG if you don't know.

Don:

I think of the truth and reconciliation piece, the truth is important to recognize. So, you know, accepting that things occurred in the past, understanding the time that those things happened, and the belief systems around them, and the impact that they've had on people. Understanding that and building from that I believe is important. After that, I would hope that with that understanding that people can start to work together to heal. And so, I would say that my culture is at a disadvantage. There's some significant gaps that need to be closed. There's some behavioural aspects to everyone that needs to change to have that occur. I live in rural Canada now. I can tell you that the receptivity to Indigenous reconciliation is definitely not the same as you will find. I would say that particularly among new Canadians or recent Canadians versus Canadians were has been here for many more years, in that I say urban Canadians have a different view than rural, and so it's an interesting thing to see. So I think my wish would be that people start to not feel concerned or a sense of fear of change but to embrace the opportunity to heal and to find a respectful balance to dealing with one another, whether in terms of changing an attitude, a belief, clarifying [inaudible], embracing the communities, and visiting you know through dialogue. I think it's more a sense of community. I think that the chance for people to feel free to learn and to teach would be nice. And there will always be people who are going to be negative and concerned and will act out of fear. But I think that would be my wish. Even in our global politics – that's all this comes down to – is race and belief, friction, and those are usually fear-based. Somebody is going to have an advantage.

Ryan:

When we started talking about the reconciliation process, to be honest I had a lot of trepidation. I didn't really think it was going to be fruitful. But in some ways I think it is a definitely a good thing, even things like how Gord Downie spoke out about how things are bad for Aboriginals still today, in the present, and how there needs to be attention to it. I think that the attention, just the conversation, is going a long way. And there's always going to be people who are going to nay-say, who are going to use it as political ammunition to push their opinions and a lot of times those are opinions of intolerance. And I completely understand why people would push those opinions. It's kind of that entitlement that they've been living with, that they get every day. I hate to say it, but the white privilege that people talk about nowadays, talking about reconciliation is basically talking about calling back those entitlements, or even just saying that they can't have white pride. And that's fine to say you're proud of your culture. You're proud of your race. But when you get to the point where you're repressing other people and trying to tell them that they can't have the same rights, that's where it's frustrating for me. I follow a lot of political news sources and opinions on both sides of the range, and one of the things for me that's really important is that, like I said, it's OK for people to have pride. If you want to be proud of your white heritage, that's perfectly fine, but it's when it starts stepping on the toes of other cultures and other people. And I think a lot of people right now who are against reconciliation or against just the conversation, I think that they sense that some of their benefits in society are trying to be levelled-out, equalized. And maybe they have it a little better than other people. It's something that I see a lot of on the Internet, in comments and threads and things like that. It kind of makes me sad. I took a stand back then when the refugees were coming into Canada and people were out in full force against that. And it's just kind of this ridiculous hypocrisy. There's so many people in Canada and the Aboriginal population is one of the fastest growing ones, but the vast majority of Canada are some sort of refugee. Somebody who isn't from here originally. So, for people to stand up against that and say, 'No! This is my Canada!’ is really a big hypocritical statement. And for a little while I was speaking out against that and I was really taking a hard line, drawing a hard line in the sand and saying, telling people in very concise debates, trying not to get emotional. I just tried to present the facts and a lot of times people would get emotional and I'd have to lose a Facebook friend or maybe that person would just stop talking to the degree or it would degrade from debates into just a kind of childish argument, or threats or something like that.

Jeannette:

I would just wish that people would read more. Would look more. Would go for the real Canadian, if you want to call it that. As much as I'm a Metis, to learn about all of that just so that you feel it, it's in you, that you're part of it. Because otherwise Canada is simply just a political thing. It's not a nation. It's just a political definition with physical parameters. And we always say from coast to coast to coast whatever. The Métis, for example, we have our own flag. We have our own national anthem. We have an original homeland. And you have to be proud of that and I think we've lost that pride. It's just a place to come that says 'Canada'. You get a passport and you make money but are you really part of it? Are you really part of this land and the people who have been here, were always here, are part of this land. That's my wish – for people to be a part of it.

Tim L:

I guess the other thing I would like to see is more walk the talk. There's so much talk at high level political forums. The Prime Minister talks a lot about his high priority of nation building, nation to nation relationships with First Nations and Métis and Inuit, but it's been a lot of talk. I'd really like to see some action. I'd like to see a real partnership with the First Nations, the Métis, and the Inuit and the Government of Canada in their distinctive paths and recognizing the rights of each of the Indigenous nations in this country and allowing for self-determination to truly happen. Self-government for First Nations, Métis and Inuit, and self-determination in a partnership with the Government of Canada. So more walk the talk at high levels because that's a lot of what it's been so far.

Fannie:

I really think it's the citizens responsibility. If we would unite – these are our friends, these are our people, and we want as a country our values, we want our politicians to do this for us – then it would be done. So, I really think it's about each and every person understanding the realities that the Indigenous people are facing, but also making concerted efforts to live out the Canadian values that we hold so deep. And looking at our people far above, protecting our people far above protecting our history. And protecting what we stand for far above protecting what previous conquerors and whatnot used to stand for. So, I think that overall increasing our understanding, looking to find ways to be more one with each other, and looking closely at the challenges that Indigenous communities face. I was attending a WebEx recently on suicide in the workplace and lots of interesting facts overall around age and gender and whatnot but it was not a surprise that the suicide rates in the Indigenous community are that much higher. The people that survive a family member that has committed suicide, it's a grave grave pain for them and we need to as a society look at what they're facing and look at our resources and look at our skill sets and just put everything in the pot and help. We need to raise our hands. We help so many other communities and nations even outside of Canada. And when I look at home here and I see the housing conditions and I see the suicide rates and I see so many other things that are happening right in our own backyard, I really don't know what the solution is. I'm sure it's way more complex than what I've been able to understand so far but I still think that if we, as citizens, become aware and raise our hand to help it can only serve to be a positive in the end.

Janice:

It's difficult sometimes. A lot of people don't see themselves in this work. They don't see the relevance to their lives. They don't see the relevance to where they are. And I guess my thought is if you live in Canada, you're part of this country, it's relevant to you. It's part of your story. I always find it really interesting. When I was doing a couple of the learning sessions and some of the new Canadians and their comments because they're startled by what they learn. Because, of course, everybody has this vision of Canada as this perfect place and you know it's such a wonderful country that respects freedoms and when they learn about our secrets… You know, yesterday someone said, “Wow! It's really important that this is part of information new immigrants receive.” And, I would agree. If you're making this your home you need to understand the history of this country and you need to understand about Indigenous rights and treaty rights and why there's a special relationship with the Crown and where that comes from. And why it's not something that you just get over with time.

Ryan:

I think that's the biggest obstacle behind reconciliation, is that there's a lot of people who benefit from the way that society is structured right now. You know anybody who lives in a major city will have no problem with drinking water and infrastructure and just having a generally healthy situation. But there are lots of Aboriginal communities that don't have those basic things. And I think it's really important that the conversation is going to those things because there are things and actions being done. And a lot of it's not fully completed but just things like getting them clean drinking water to use. Just the awareness that people in places have been like this for 20 [or] 30 years. It's kind of ridiculous and it's very hypocritical. I find the people who live happily and expect other people to not live in the same kind of condition with those kind of basic needs met.

Pamela:

With me in my job as an Indigenous person who had been wounded in childhood… You know, I had a manager who said to me, “You know what? I know you're intelligent, Pam, but I think there's something wrong with you.” And so she had me go in for a psych Educational Assessment which is covered by Sun Life. So I did that and then I was diagnosed with PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, and that was why I was having a hard time focusing. So I have to admit that through my career as a public servant, coming in wounded from the hurt in childhood, of typical Indigenous families – because both my parents were from residential school. And so they came in with all their hurt and their pain, raising me, and that wounded me even though I was never physically abused or never yelled at. But I could feel my parents' pain and somehow it affected me to the point where I have PTSD. So, my manager looked at the recommendations and the Psych Ed assessment and said, “You know what? We're going to implement these, what we can. And this is what I would like you to do, but I can't tell you to do it because it has nothing to do with work.” The supports were built in for me at work. At that time, by the Psych Ed assessment – which wasn't too long ago, just a couple of years ago – in our department, you know, with the mental health and wellness, it just came about within the last year. And so, there's not enough awareness about mental health and wellness and supports there, not just for Indigenous people, but supports there for everybody else. I think most people in this world are walking around in pain. I think there's more people walking around in pain than there are people walking around feeling healthy. Looking at the public service right now I think that's where we're lacking and I think there should be more workshops on not diagnosing, but for managers to identify and work with your employee to make them successful in their job rather than the opposite, saying “You're not performing We're going to take this action against you,” because there's all kinds of mental health issues that we need to know about as managers and that would be not just PTSD but that would include say adult ADD or ADHD, it could be about depression, it could be about addiction. So now the supports are in there for me and I'm also seeing a therapist for the last couple of years. It's made a huge improvement in my well-being in terms of being able to focus better. And with increased confidence I'm now able to speak up and participate as a team member and to do the work that I'm supposed to do with ease now. It's not perfect but you know that's the way it is in government. Sixty percent of the work that you do each day has nothing to do with your Employee Performance Agreement. In the past I would not acknowledge that. “It's okay, Pam. You're okay. You're doing the best you can do.” Before, I would beat myself up saying, “I'm not working on everything that was on my performance agreement.” And it's just nice today, from counselling and from having a good manager, saying you know Pam you need to go get a Psych Ed assessment done because I'm protecting you in the future with your future manager. I just had my PMA done and everything is on track and that I'm a good team member and I do extra things for mental health and raising Indigenous awareness in the sector.

Tim O:

You know yesterday I went to a presentation from the Clerk. There was a few bureaucrats there. They asked him questions and he wowed them with his inspiring messages. But there were no challenge functions back to the Clerk and I wasn't sure if it was appropriate but I went up to him and I said, “I have challenge function for you, Clerk.” He's like, “Oh!” And I'm like, “You know what would be a great gesture of reconciliation?” First of all, I'm in an English Essential position and I said, “In some ways I'm topped off at where I'm at because to leave my level I would need to learn French. I said I probably am not [going to do that] because of my PTSD but I'm not inspired to learn French. I understand the significance of the French language, especially here in Ottawa, but I wouldn't go to the end of the earth to learn French. But I'll tell you right now, I would go to the end of the earth to learn my language. So if we can waive for Indigenous public servants the French requirement in lieu of them learning their Indigenous language, I bet you a lot of people would be really inspired by that.”

Tim L:

And I guess you know the third thing is as a federal public servant I would I would really like to see more Indigenous employees within the federal public service. And so to look at our recruitment, our recruitment processes, to make sure that they're culturally sensitive and not so – bureaucratic is what I'm trying to say that it doesn't really get at what I'm what the problems are – the problem is that the recruitment processes and the application processes are just too… they're not flexible enough. There needs to be more flexibility to be able to bring in some really good people that exist out in the Indigenous communities, bring them into the public service in a respectful and culturally appropriate way and to do everything we can within, once they're in, to ensure that we have a culturally sensitive workplace that people aren't wanting to leave. You look at the public service employees over the last – I don't know, four or five surveys – they show that we're meeting employment equity targets with respect to Indigenous employees. So we're bringing people in, but we're losing them just as fast. We've got a high rate of people leaving. People are coming in but a lot of people are leaving and it's because we don't have the workplace that we think we might have and we need to improve on that to keep people and to allow them to make those contributions I spoke about earlier, and to be able to progress and to have successful careers right up through senior leadership levels in the organization. So those are the three things that I'd like to see is the blanket exercise in the schools, a real commitment and action from senior levels of government, and more Indigenous employees within the public service. And to make the public service a more welcoming and culturally appropriate place, so people will stay.

Indigenous Perspectives: Stories from Indigenous Public Servants is a production of Employment and Social Development Canada

All opinions expressed on Indigenous Perspectives are strictly those of the individual and are not necessarily those of their employer.

Public servants featured in this episode were Fannie Bernard, Don Bilodeau, Janice Edgar, Jeannette Fraser, Ryan Jeddore, Daniel Jette Pamela Kupeuna, Tim O'Loan and Tim Low.

Our main title music is by Boogey the Beat, with additional music provided by Boogey the Beat and Greg Reiter.

I'm Todd Lyons, host, writer, and technical producer for this series.

Thank you for listening.

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Download (MP3, 19,2 MB) Indigenous Perspectives: Stories from Indigenous Public Servants Episode 9 – Priorities, pt. 1

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