Episode 12 - Indigenous Perspectives: Stories from Indigenous Public Servants - A Conversation with Candice St-Aubin
" My individual experience isn't the same as my colleagues or my fellow Aboriginal or Indigenous executives either . . . everybody has lived a very different life, as any Canadian has. "
This final episode of the Indigenous Perspectives Podcast is a special one-on-one conversation with Candice St-Aubin, Director General of Employment and Social Development Canada’s Indigenous Affairs Directorate, recorded in December 2018.
Duration: 29:05 minutes
Transcript
(soundbyte: Candice St-Aubin)
"My individual experience isn't the same as my colleagues or my fellow Aboriginal or Indigenous executives either. So, I think that as a whole in the public service and even as a whole in the country as we take this path together and, like I said, we try to bring those two histories into one, you know, that we keep in mind that everybody has lived a very different life, as any Canadian has."
(music: “Hoka” – Boogey The Beat)
Indigenous Perspectives. Stories from Indigenous public servants.
Tansi.
This is Indigenous Perspectives, a program where we hope to explore the experiences and perspectives of Indigenous public servants, what reconciliation means to them, and what it can be for Canada.
Reflecting on the International Day of the World’s Indigenous Peoples and the 10th anniversary of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, the Honourable Jody Wilson-Raybould said:
“The recognition of rights – in particular the inherent right of self-government and the right to self-determination – is a large part of the foundation of the reconciliation we are committed to realizing here in Canada. The UN Declaration, along with the Principles Respecting the Government of Canada’s Relationship with Indigenous Peoples, will serve as fundamental tools for advancing reconciliation. Many Indigenous leaders from Canada were among those who strove to make the UN Declaration a reality.
“Reconciliation is a journey, not a destination. Change comes through actions, not words. We – Canada and Indigenous peoples – all have work to do, and it will be challenging. As Indigenous peoples continue to take back control of their lives, Canada as a federation is strengthened. In our country’s 150th year, it is our time to ask what we want the next 150 years to look like and the place Indigenous peoples will have in making Canada an even greater nation.”
TODD:
So, care to introduce yourself?
CANDICE:
My name is Candice St-Aubin. I am the Director General of Indigenous Affairs Directorate within Skills and Employment Branch at ESDC.
TODD:
And how long have you been working in the public service now?
CANDICE:
I have been in the public service for approximately 10 years. I think I might have just surpassed that actually in November.
TODD:
What made you join the government after, I'm assuming, a private sector career?
CANDICE:
I was actually working in the NGO field. My background is early learning and childcare so I was working in childcare. I did a little stint doing some instruction with a local college here on the Quebec side and then transitioned over – I was doing my degree at night – and then transitioned into the NGO sector. So I was doing a lot of the advocacy work for children's rights and children's issues. In particular, Indigenous children's issues and I ended up meeting with some public servants who are working on some of the federal child care programs for Aboriginal children – Indigenous children – and ended up getting recruited. I never sought out the federal government. It was certainly not something I thought would be of interest to me. I thought it would be boring. I was wrong.
TODD:
So what does it mean to be an Indigenous employee in the workplace, or what are the realities for Indigenous employees as you see them?
CANDICE:
I think that's a very individualized question. I think that everybody experiences, as any employee would, their own set of circumstances, their own set of realities, both visible realities and not-so-visible realities. I can only speak from my experience and what I have come to encounter and to work with and sometimes work against. It was an interesting time coming into the public service throughout the last decade. It was a very different vibe as many public servants can attest regardless if you're Indigenous or not. There was less focus perhaps on some of the other groups that may work, like visible minorities etc., Indigenous components, Francophone employees, and staff for a very long time. And my experience was always you didn't really come out and disclose. With Indigenous populations, of course, it's such a varied group and there is no stereotypical look, or there is, but we certainly try and kind of break down those stereotypes. So fortunately for me, while I have the dark hair and complexion – not as dark as my other friends and the public servants who are who are First Nations – I'm still, you know, [what you] would call an East Coast. You know, I'm a little bit lighter. So, it was never as prominent and I certainly didn't disclose it publicly when I was in meetings and stuff because I found at the time it could really pigeonhole you as to what you could do and where you could work within the public service. And I think that those kinds of – I don't see bias because I would think that has a negative connotation – but those kinds of experiences are normal in human nature. And I think that we create these kind of groupings of people and where people should work. You know, perhaps those with the visible and invisible disabilities may work within the Office of Disabilities, or, you know, perhaps multicultural environments like CIC or International Affairs would be better served by new Canadians or something like these kind of misconceptions or perceptions. So, as an Indigenous person – and I think we still see it, too – in Indigenous programming and stuff you tend to see the higher concentrations. And, for myself I just want to change the entire world. I don't want to just change the Indigenous world. I want to change the entire world. I want to serve all Canadians. So, for the longest time you know there was a group of us – I can hold them in my hand – a group of us, some Metis, some who were mixed Inuk, and you know maybe someone from out West. We wouldn't self-disclose because we want to change the world and change the policy, the policy context. So, for the longest time that's how it was. And I came in at a relatively – not junior level – but I was PM-04, working in programs and ended up an Indigenous program, Indigenous children's program, which was amazing – an amazing experience. And then I realized halfway through my career here I didn't want to fight it anymore. I didn't want to hide. And that's when I started to self-disclose and not to self-disclose I just actually just started to talk about my experiences when we were doing policy work or kind of any research or discussions and knowledge development. I would talk about my own experiences or those of my family and friends and I felt once I got over my own hang-ups about it and didn't care and how it kind of took that fight to prove myself a little bit more, that's when I really started to see my career blossom because I felt more comfortable in my own skin, if you will, in the public service.
TODD:
So, now more than ever before, at least in my career which is about the same ten years, I'm seeing more and more evidence of Indigenous culture becoming part of our modern workplace whether it's the cultural centre at Place du Portage or the acknowledgement at the beginning of meetings that meetings are being held and government business is being done on unceded territories. Where do you see the role for Indigenous culture coming even further into the workplace?
CANDICE:
Funny that you talk about that that's something that I struggle with, too. I think that there is… I think that Canada is going through a rebirth, almost a rebirth of its of its definition of its nationalism or its national state. We use this term in other ways but really that reconciliation to reconcile two historical tracks that were happening. One, of a colonial track where they were establishing this quote unquote new nation, and then a secondary track of assimilation and extermination. And what we're trying to do now is normalize the two into one and I think that there is a component. I think that we need to acknowledge. We need to acknowledge that the cultural components where it best fits and where it best makes sense. We're going to get it wrong. That's OK because we have to get it wrong to figure out what's going to be right because there's no road map to this. Even just the traditional acknowledgement – the acknowledgement of the traditional territories, the renaming of buildings – it acknowledges the fact that this may not have been the way it is had we not had those two tracks. Those two tracks are what created where we are and now we're trying to bring those two tracks onto one path and we have to do it slowly. So, I think there is a component. Where we need to be careful is that we don't go too fast. Things need to be paced in a way that makes sense – makes sense to Canada and Canadians, makes sense to Indigenous populations writ large because there is not just one Indigenous culture. And some of them are quite contradictory in nature, the cultures themselves across Indigenous populations even across First Nations populations and certainly urban and more northern populations. But I think it's trying to find – and this has always been my in the back of my head – is we need to do it in a pace that's respectful, that allows time to adapt. Because if we try and force fit something because we want to do it – we want to do “what's right” – and I use the air quote bunny ears, what's right could potentially create a potential negative outcome. So, I always take with trepidation and it's not to slow it down to a point where it's not happening but it's to make really sound decisions in a respectable pace to allow people the time to grow comfortable with change. And not just non-Indigenous populations but Indigenous populations themselves a lot of Indigenous people now are finally becoming more comfortable talking about themselves. The experiences of residential schooling and the trauma of that and the Sixties Scoop and child welfare systems and stuff had such massive implications to individuals and adults. You know, we have this stagnant picture – this static picture – not stagnant, that's wrong, [my] apologies, wrong choice of words but that static picture of these impacting a child, right, because it's all child focused, the most vulnerable, the most impressionable. But those children have become adults. They've had children of themselves, their own, or grandchildren as it were. So when we talk about [the] residential school system and we talk about child welfare systems and Sixties Scoop of children, these children are adults now. Change and all of the lenses that we have internalized, or Indigenous people have experienced and internalized, will… it's brings a lot of things to the surface again. Change does that. So this is why pace needs to be respectful to Canadians to understand the change and the public servants to understand the changes that we make and the importance of the changes that we're making, such as opening ceremonies or recognition of unceded territories, the use of traditional languages, but also for the Indigenous people who were also trying to make it right for.
TODD:
So as someone who over time is becoming increasingly more transparent or open about their identity, their background, is there anything that you wish your colleagues or the public service at large should know about you and your culture and how it shapes your identity, your perception?
CANDICE:
Well for me… so, I am an urbanite. I did not grow up on a reserve. My family's reserve of not far from here. My grandmother married a mixed-blood so she was removed from the reserve and in 1985 and they brought forward Bill C-31 through the Lovelace case we had an opportunity as family to reclaim and re-register as First Nations. My grandmother experienced severe horizontal or lateral violence with Indigenous – or First Nations, I should say, Indigenous as First Nations – you know, First Nations family members and others as well as non-Indigenous. She was you know made to feel like the dirty Indian and stuff. And she made a very conscious decision as a very strong woman to 'stick her thumbs' to the to the establishment in the Office of the Indian Registrar and not re-register. She enfranchised and asked that my aunties and my father and my dad's side honour her that way. Now, she had sisters who chose not to and they went back and they got their status. But this was something that my family had always committed to doing. Now it's changed. Now it's just my dad who's left struggling and trying to make that decision. And this is something that… I always feel I need to tell the story of why there are choices that people make about their identity that go beyond the number, that go beyond a card, that goes beyond the construct of blood quantum which is something that we're going to start seeing more and more, where it comes down to an individual's right to identify. We have made that choice and we still struggle. I still struggle with it. You know, my dad spoke Algonquin. I mean, it was in my grandmother. [She] would get angry and smack them and when they were little kids running around and she'd cuss them out in the traditional language. You know, worked it in. And this was something that we grew up with and stuff. So, I am very comfortable with… I know where I come from, but I don't have a number. I just find it's sad the fact that Canada is now the only remaining country to register a group – a segment of a population – and give them a registration number. I should point out that my partner is Jewish. His parents are Holocaust survivors so I mean there's that there's been fruitful conversations around Passover on that. But that, for me, something that I try and instill about who I am is that I have made conscious decisions about how much power I will give a federal institution about my identity and I encourage us as we look towards engaging and bringing reconciliation into the public service that we not discount the value of a person's choice and a person's right. And how do we find the balance, and who are we as a public service to lay down definitions on identity in light of this Office of the Indian Registrar, [and] the 1951 Indian Act. In light of, the 1867 activity. So I think that there's a whole construct that we can't lose sight of. And I know that something that I feel very empowered to champion is that… how do we find that balance between an individual or a collective right and trying to do what's quote/unquote “right” according to the mass population.
TODD:
Why do you think Indigenous people should consider a career in the public service?
CANDICE:
I always think… I go back [to] when I did my undergrad degree. I took some women's studies courses and electives and they talked about theories of feminism and one of the theories of feminism that I came to love was the radical feminism where you go into an institution and tear it down from the inside to build it back up. And I always feel like that is one of my drivers. I love serving Canadians. I love being a public servant. I feel like my boss is the Canadian on the street who pays their taxes every day and they want somebody as their voice and their champion in the federal public service. And I came in with that in mind and in particular with Indigenous children's rights… Indigenous children being my area of passion. I wanted to tear down the institution from the inside to make change. Now I'm being kind of bright eyed and bushy tailed and not really knowing at all how government works. I came to kind of smack… smack head-on to that wall as I realized “Okay, well I guess I can't change the world in one day” but I encourage Indigenous people to come in here to help make a small change to be agents of change on the inside of an institution. It's one thing to try and make change from the outside but I think back to that theory, that radical feminism theory, where you go in and you make change on the inside. Slow change, and if we think about a virus on a computer infecting change – and I know that's kind of a negative way of saying it – but it takes one small change. Once you get in, it's very hard to get out. Make those changes and you start weaving the change throughout. So, as an Indigenous person I don't even think it's about making change on Indigenous programs or Indigenous policies. It's coming in. If you want to work on scientific theory, you want to work on international relations… your ability to come in and make systemic change from a cultural perspective on how we deal with each other as human to human. Second to none. And I think that that is one of the big key players for anybody coming in and especially we have this amazingly brilliant cohort of young leaders that are coming up and I mean I want them to be in [their] community is to be the leaders of the future as well. But I think even leaders in the Canadian public service that we would just be richer for it, to be frank. Just because of the fact that they are not afraid to be innovative. They're not afraid to take chances.
TODD:
So speaking strictly as an individual what does reconciliation mean to you? Wat would be your reconciliation?
CANDICE:
Oh man. I think I asked the exact same question to the Clerk of the Privy Council at one of our EX conferences through APEX. And he turned it around on me and said, well what would you do? That is the question Todd. That is the quintessential question. What is reconciliation to me? Reconciliation to me. I know. I don't know what it is. I don't want to limit it by putting a definition around it. I really don't. And I think that the government… I think we're there, really, hopefully, that we're pretty flexible in how we move. I don't think that there is a specific one, a boxed-in definition of reconciliation in Candice's mind. I think every little step we take is reconciliation. Every little movement forward is reconciliation, either from a programmatic fiscal relationship with communities, or even just how we talk to each other. Like, anything from a large financial transfer all the way down to how we communicate as humans in the workplace. That is all reconciliation in my mind. I would not want to limit it to one or two or three or even ten actions, or even 80 calls to action. I don't think that's it. I don't think we can limit ourselves to that. I think it's just, it's literally a whole 180 on how we work as a society and not just in Canada but how Canada interacts internationally with those with strong Indigenous populations. That's all a part of reconciliation because I think how Canada represents itself on an international stage is a reflection on how it treats individual populations, [and] Indigenous populations in particular. That's the political way of saying 'I don't have one'.
TODD:
Which is completely fair.
CANDICE:
Yeah. Yeah, I don't. I don't want to limit myself. I'm afraid to do that. I think that it won't serve anybody's best interest. I think we just have to keep pushing the bar further and further ahead.
TODD:
For typical Canadian, a non-Indigenous Canadian, someone that really doesn't grasp the significance the importance of reconciliation, how would you explain why it's something that they should be interested in? Why it's something that that is important to to their life and to the country as a whole?
CANDICE:
You know, I think whenever stories started coming out about the residential school experience and the experiences that happened, the atrocities that happened during that time, I think Canada… the bulk of Canadians were shocked at how Canada treated these vulnerable children. And that wasn't that long ago that that all came to light and it certainly was that long ago that it was happening. This is a very new country. It's pretty young. And so I think that kind of cracked the veneer a little bit of how Canadians envision themselves as a just society, a loving all-encompassing 'bringing everybody in' kind of society. And I think the importance of the reconciliation activities and the work that we're doing and that everybody's doing – and I'm excited to see everybody Indigenous and non-Indigenous participating in it – is that we're trying to get to a place where we don't need to have these types of interviews, where we don't need to have these type of targeted investments and efforts to fix a broken society or a system. I think that by having it become such a normal component of our everyday life it becomes a non-component of everyday life, like it's just woven into our daily fabric of being. And it really is only to the betterment of Canada and as a nation and on the international stage because it creates a stronger fabric, really – goes back to that woven fabric – and we become stronger for it. And I think Canadians, they say like 90 percent of Canadians or 96 percent of Canadians, know nothing about Indigenous people – who they are. What is an Indigenous right or what is Section 35? Even just starting with the basic level of knowledge only makes us richer, only makes us stronger. Our organizations will do better, our businesses will do better. We'll tap into all of these unknown areas of investment and resources and labour markets stuff that we never knew. We had such a closed mind about it and never knew about it. We never thought about it. We never talked about it. So just from what happened 20-some odd years ago with the residential school experience coming to light. It's massive. It's had a big impact on Canada and this is just taking it to the next step. We went through a little bit of a grey period there, a little bit of the lights kind of went on dim for a bit, for a couple of – for about a decade – where we didn't talk about it very much. We gave some words of apology but beyond that we never really made targeted efforts and now we are and it's going to be uncomfortable. It's not going to be good. It's going to be uncomfortable for a lot and that's okay. Like I said we have to get it wrong before we get it right. But we'll get it right all together, which is great. Not everybody will be on board, I'm sure, but I think there's an appetite for change and I know Canadians want to be part of that.
TODD:
For the Canadians at large, the non-Indigenous Canadian that is sympathetic or aware but really doesn't know what they could do as an individual, what are some concrete things that they could do to help?
CANDICE:
Well, for one, just… knowledge is power. You know, familiarize yourself. There are so many resources available. We're in the technological age. There are so many resources available online to the general population, the general public, and things [like] just finding that who are the three major groups and what are some of the languages and what are some of the traditional foods? Go and experience the traditional foods. Go to a pow wow. It's great. It's a lot of fun and there's a lot of good food there. Museums – which, you know, a whole other conversation right there about stereotyping and the like – but there's a lot of history. Learn the history of Canada because we didn't hear about it in our textbooks. Go and learn about it and just soak it in and experience it and try things. There's drumming circles you can be a part of and you know be adventurous. And cuisine that you try or just read an Indigenous author. Listen to some throat singing or just lose some of it as part of your daily life. Don't make it like you have to go take a university course. I mean, if you want to – go for it, that's great. But there is all over the country tons of things going on everyday that people don't know about and it's open to everyone Come and experience it. Ask questions. It's okay. People want to talk about it. It's celebration for the most part, so I encourage people to just work it into it. Watch APTN, you know. Listen to Candy Palmater on CBC – which is awesome. There's Don Kelly the comedian. Andrew Hayden Taylor. There are so many great – Thomas King – there's so many artists out there, writers, singers. I think Art and Culture… Art is a great way to learn about a culture. You know, music, A Tribe Called Red or, you know, what have you. It's just amazing just to have it and open your eyes to it in non-traditional senses. You don't have to take a class, you know, it can be your everyday.
TODD:
Any final thoughts to share, any answers to questions that I neglected to ask?
CANDICE:
You know I think I can't say this enough that everybody is very individual. So I always, you know… I'm not a pooper. I don't want to poop on anything but I always like to put a little you know my little flag out there is that I can't stress enough the pace is important. You know, a respectful pace of change is important. And really trying to avoid this swath. My individual experience isn't the same as my colleagues or my fellow Aboriginal or Indigenous executives either. So I think that as a whole in the public service and even as a whole the country as we take this path together and like I said we try to bring those two histories into one you know that we keep in mind that everybody has lived a very different life, as any Canadian has, as you have from your siblings or your parents have. And as long as you recognize that there's not one solution to any situation, and that's okay, that we're taking this together and we'll evolve and we'll get it wrong sometimes. But it's okay. We're in it together.
Indigenous Perspectives: Stories from Indigenous Public Servants is a production of Employment and Social Development Canada.
All opinions expressed on Indigenous Perspectives are strictly those of the individual and are not necessarily those of their employer.
Our main title music is by Boogey the Beat.
I'm Todd Lyons, host, writer, and technical producer for this series.
Thank you for listening.
Download
Page details
- Date modified: